If Zoners are getting their caps removed...

[Jihadjoe]

Unlike Zoner caps, these haven't been responsible for overly tremendous amounts of QQ. Namely, breaking ID engagement rules and the like. Furthermore, there's no similar stigmas of zonerzonerzoner.

That is precisely the reason for talking about these other factions.

It is more worthwhile to talk about the justification and reasons behind these ships existing is there is not a stigma (or at least, less of a stigma) attached to them. If you wait until something becomes a burning issue before talking it over, then discussion is less likely to be reasonable.

Edit: This is not yet-another-thread-about-zoner-caps. This thread is to discuss OTHER FACTIONS' caps.

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[Nexus Ark]

Just stepping in here to make a point:
Unlike Zoner caps, these haven't been responsible for overly tremendous amounts of QQ. Namely, breaking ID engagement rules and the like. Furthermore, there's no similar stigmas of zonerzonerzoner.

By simply turning neph to faction only like SCRA and Nomad, literally all the breaking ID and rules will be gone in a fortnight.

[Highland Laddie]

I assume that you would approve if the Zoner get to keep their capship to restricted them to Edge space only? Which isn't that mostly happening already?

This thread is to discuss OTHER FACTIONS' caps.

Well, there's a difference between dealing with something via in-game mechanics and rules/restrictions, and dealing with something via background info and faction lore. Zoner caps have a problem with BOTH, hence why they get all the attention in the first place, and why devs are trying to rectify the dual problems in one fell swoop.

In order to keep their toys, I wouldn't even necessarily have to see them be restricted to areas outside of House space, but I would want to see them as more unfriendly or even hostile diplomatically with more factions. All other factions who field BSs don't have near universal diplomatic neutrality. That's the difference. There should be give in there somewhere.

[Enkidu]

I assume that you would approve if the Zoner get to keep their capship to restricted them to Edge space only? Which isn't that mostly happening already?

This thread is to discuss OTHER FACTIONS' caps.

Well, there's a difference between dealing with something via in-game mechanics and rules/restrictions, and dealing with something via background info and faction lore. Zoner caps have a problem with BOTH, hence why they get all the attention in the first place, and why devs are trying to rectify the dual problems in one fell swoop.

In order to keep their toys, I wouldn't even necessarily have to see them be restricted to areas outside of House space, but I would want to see them as more unfriendly or even hostile diplomatically with more factions. All other factions who field BSs don't have near universal diplomatic neutrality. That's the difference. There should be give in there somewhere.

Um…

Universal neutrality is extremely hard to maintain. Clearly you've never played Zoner.

People are always gunning for a way to shoot you. Preserving that neutrality is all you have, and leads to extremely difficult Rp's. The turrets are there in the rare instances where you truly need to defend yourself.


The ID isn't even remotely overpowered. Neutrality is in no way a blessing.

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[Rodent]

The example of the GMG and their vanilla lore is pertinent to this matter, so I'll summarise. They managed to defeat a large, lumbering Imperial Rheinland fleet using bomber strikes and basically luring them into space Afghanistan in the form of Sigma-19. Also consider the fact that GMG is probably richer than god, since they were the premier supplier for H-Fuel, on which everything in space flies (until Gallia came along).

Money didn't get them capital ships. They've stuck to their roots.

any of the smaller factions listed by Joe have nowhere near the amount of wealth and economic stranglehold the GMG does and has maintained.

Ideally, any fight of a smaller faction versus a house military (say, Rogues vs Liberty) would follow the same pattern. Rogues have a lot of bombers which they can use in hit and run attacks from myriad asteroid fields. The Lumbering House Fleets can certainly decimate them...if they can find them and catch them. To perform that role, you don't really need capital ships. You just need the barghest. The fact that Rogues shouldn't really be engaging Liberty Navy head on is another topic entirely, but hypothetically if they were to fight...that's how it would go.

I'm not touching the zoner topic in here at all, but I do agree that if you're suddenly looking to size up and delete/add ships to factions according to lore justification rather than just a fun ship to have...all factions should be equally subject to such a consideration.

Then again, capital ships are...for better or worse, one of the charms of this mod and I certainly do feel that arguments for fun and accessibility taking precedence over roleplay apply here.

[Detale]

Less caps, less lags, less nubs, more snubs, more activity, more groupfights, more fun.

[Highland Laddie]

Universal neutrality is extremely hard to maintain. Clearly you've never played Zoner.

And you're under the assumption that this neutrality is only maintained via the guns of your over-developed but poorly justified capfleet? And no, I don't play a Zoner because, aside from the ship line, I don't see the appeal.

People are always gunning for a way to shoot you. Preserving that neutrality is all you have, and leads to extremely difficult Rp's. The turrets are there in the rare instances where you truly need to defend yourself.

So, people are ALWAYS gunning for you, but you only RARELY have instances where you need to defend yourself? How does that work? Who are these people who are always gunning for you? And how do you actually go about with the RP that resolves these situations? And why do said turrets have to be BS turrets for you to adequately defend yourself? I imagine this is the kind of justification the devs are looking for you to explain when they want you to defend your caps instead of "NOOO!!! Now I have to go back and edit some lines of text on my 5 years of RPing my Colony ship as a lumbering war machine!!!"

Then again, capital ships are...for better or worse, one of the charms of this mod and I certainly do feel that arguments for fun and accessibility taking precedence over roleplay apply here.

Then again...how many times have you heard "This is a RP server! blah blah" ?

I can at least appreciate that cap flyers in House militaries and other Quasi-Lawfuls are at least confined to limited ZOIs, and have several direct opponents to fight. The only other groups who come close are Junkers, who have worse diplomacy, smaller ZOI, and no caps whatsoever, and IMG, who still have more enemies but also very crappy and limited capships.

[Jihadjoe]

For the last time, THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO DEBATE THE REMOVAL OF ZONER CAPS.

This thread is a discussion on whether or not other factions have the ability to support caps.

There are about a billion other threads in which you can throw around the zoner argument.

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[Omicron]

Of all groups, the only precedent for capital ships could easily be put to 5 names.

Liberty, Rheinland, Kusari, Bretonia and The Order (Osiris and rogue LNS's that help or die gloriously, stealing battleship kills from Edison Trent).

That saying, I would put The Order's raw military strenght between houses and everyone else. By that I have also to stress out on fact that I estimate lore numbers (let's simplify and concetrate on the big pewsticks without going into detail with cruisers and other classes) of The Order to be ~10 battleships while house-grade capspam I would put at 100+

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[Thexare]

Then the following things should also be reviewed:

- Blood dragon caps.
- Rheinland Pirate Cruiser.
- Hessian battleship.
- Rogue/Molly Destroyer.
- BHG caps and/or the BHG core as a whole.
- OC and Corsair battleships.

Actually, I agree... mostly. My thoughts, in order. Plus an additional thing at the end.

1. If we were to say that most of them were modifications of older models abandoned by/stolen from/helmed by traitors to the KNF, I could see a case. Though they probably shouldn't have publicly-available battleships.

2. If we're only questioning the Hessian battleship, I have a hard time understanding why the RPC - made by Hessians - is on the chopping block. It seems like a perfect ship for several unlawful groups to buy (and SRP as needed); it's simply an outdated model that the Hessians still have the plans for because why delete them. By not questioning the Hessian cruiser, you imply that you believe the Hessians have the production capacity for cruisers.

3. This one did strike me as being a bit strange.

4. Cruisers seem to defeat the purpose of the Rogues. They attract more attention than their typical bomber/transport strikes would, because suddenly they're fielding a warship. When it's snubs and cargo ships, they're mostly left to the LPI - start rolling out warships and the Navy and LSF start coming after you. And that's bad.

5. Always seemed a bit odd, but I'm not familiar enough with the faction to comment further.

6. Also inclined to agree that a review at least is needed.


However.

I don't think the current SRP system is entirely fair either for restricted ships still belonging to a given faction. It's a bit too strict for that, in my opinion. Some restrictions are perhaps merited by in-RP limitations, but I think they should be a bit lighter for ships like the above that would still belong to their matching faction.


However, Part Deux.

This is under Disco/Freelancer Scale, not Logical Ship Scale. Logically speaking, I like EVE's scaling. But Discovery doesn't run on that, in large part because Freelancer mechanics don't work well at that size.