Kicking IC out of Rheinland was stupid due to both in and oorp reasons, but Vrabcek is right IC leadership at that time could be more willing to cooperate with official Rheinland factions.
In general: it's silly to say there are "good officials and bad indies", or vice versa. There are good and bad people, on both sides of barricade. Creating artificial divisions on "officials" and "indies" doesn't make sense, e.g. I am official in DHC but fly as an unofficial Molly. Am I "official" or "indie" player?
Instead of spending energy on pointless arguments just work with reasonable people, regardless do they fly under official tag or independent one.
As far as officials not being responsible for indies why is it i get fined, yelled at and treated like crap over outcast indies docking a dread etc at rochester, not like i can shoot at outcast dread down while it is trying to dock, but everytime some lulwat indie in an OC dread shows up in NY the official outcasts faction does not hear a thing but everyone raises hell with the official junkers? Our of the blue i got told to piss off and stop letting outcast dreads dock at rochester by some LSF. We can tell them not to dock all we want, but you think any will actually listen? So you cannot say officials are not held accountable for indies, cause i have been RP fined for Indie's doings.
(06-15-2014, 04:46 PM)Haste Wrote: Who do you hold accountable for an indie's actions?
Who do you hold accountable for an official faction member's actions?
The difference there is what Jack is getting at.
Well, as long as officials have as much power over indies and their actions like they do have now (read: none), then everybody should be responsible for their actions. Indies for their own, officials for their own. If we want to hold officials responsible for the actions of their indies, we are to give them the powers to control what they are held responsible for.
I do not know any official faction that takes responsibility for actions of their indies (especially for mistakes).
I'll give an example:
Imagine a player decides to fuck up IMG. He creates a Hessian. After committing a few crimes, he crashdocks the Hessian in midfight with a Rheinlander on Freistadt, right in the face of the Rheinlander. BAM!
Or an IMG Cruiser (because caps always create a big outcry) is pirating in Omega 11, then docking at a Hessian bases in plain sight of his Rheinland attackers who want to kill him ofc after he did damage to them.
Sould I give a f.... as IMG|?
Ofc not.
Should there be a reaction to that?
Ofc not.
And there you see why (especially negative/destructive/disruptive) indie actions can never be taken into account on the "real" scale, and official factions cannot be held responsible for their indie's actions.
The problem is that some expects officials to be responsible for their indies while giving no power over them, nothing to keep them in control. This won't ever work. Obviously one won't take responsibility for something they can't control, and they are rightfully denying said responsibility. Either we separate indies from officials and each takes responsibility for their own crap, officials for their own stuff, indies for their own stuff, or if we really want to blame officials for everything, make them able to control everything. But then again, ignorance is never the answer, nor will ever freeing indies from having to face the consequences of their own actions. The excuse "indies will always be indies" is the worst.
Instead of expressing their deep shock at how in april 2012 some dreadfull indies lead an official faction to persue a RP course that they obviously wanted to persue anyway using the indies actions as a welcome excuse, why don't the people who are so deeply shocked that they simply must call for advantages and more power to themselves concretely say which advantages and powers exactly they want?
That could make this thread a little less pointless. Just saying.
The only "responsibility" the official factions have for the indies comes solely from the fact that they have certain powers over them: the faction rights. If they had no such power, they would have no responsibility for them either.
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FR2 allows leader and second in command to order indies around as long as it's canon, barely anything. FR4 allows you to restrict events to officials only, but there are barely any events lately, the recent sanction was oof a kind I haven't seen in years, and yet the FR did not save the event from getting ruined. FR5 allows officials to rephack an individual, but that takes way more effort to submit properly and way more time to be reviewed and carried out than circumventing the rephack.
That's all. On paper? Yes, we can control indies. In excercise? You are kidding, right?
FR2 allows leader and second in command to order indies around as long as it's canon, barely anything. FR4 allows you to restrict events to officials only, but there are barely any events lately, the recent sanction was oof a kind I haven't seen in years, and yet the FR did not save the event from getting ruined. FR5 allows officials to rephack an individual, but that takes way more effort to submit properly and way more time to be reviewed and carried out than circumventing the rephack.
That's all. On paper? Yes, we can control indies. In excercise? You are kidding, right?
As I see it, and I may be mistaken, the 1st or 2nd in command could have ordered those indies to stop docking on hessian bases. That would be a perfectly canon lore thing to ask. If the indies had refused, they could have asked to have their IDs changed and set hostile to IC. That would have solved the problem, if both official factions had really wished to solve the situation like this. But, it appears that the official factions chose not to solve it like this, and continue the course of RP that they took. It was their choice.
So I may ask again...
What more power do you want, exactly?
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From little bits you dropped here and there like april of 2012 or hessian bases I don't think I can have a vague guess about what you are trying to say, so how about we first clarify what exact event (or series of events) you are talking about?
That is one thing. Another is that I don't know if you noticed or not, but 1st or 2nd in commands can only order people around in-game if they are in-game themselves too, present, and on their ranked characters. If they are not there when the docking happens, Faction Right or not, they can't do crap to prevent the docking.
From little bits you dropped here and there like april of 2012 or hessian bases I don't think I can have a vague guess about what you are trying to say, so how about we first clarify what exact event (or series of events) you are talking about?The events linked in the first post in this thread?
(06-17-2014, 08:56 PM)Thyrzul Wrote: That is one thing. Another is that I don't know if you noticed or not, but 1st or 2nd in commands can only order people around in-game if they are in-game themselves too, present, and on their ranked characters. If they are not there when the docking happens, Faction Right or not, they can't do crap to prevent the docking.
No-where does it say in the faction rights that the orders have to be relay directly ingame, the moment it happens, delivered by the 1st or 2nd in command themselves.
They could use the ingame mail system. They could ask fellow IC to relay it to them. They could use the forum. They could ask the RM to relay their orders to them. They could give RM permission to fire on any IC ship that does this. They could even ask admins to simply rephack all IC IDs hostile to Hessians or who ever.
If you want to RP as something like a CO, you are going to have to take that the responsibilities that come with it. That's the sort of stuff COs deal with. Don't wanna deal with it? Don't try RPing as someone's superior.
You still haven't told us exactly what more powers you want.
It's the third time I ask. And I think its a fair question, considering the number of times and number of people that complained about it.
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