(06-18-2014, 04:48 PM)Infinitus Wrote: When you restrict caps to official factions, you take them away from indies. Either you want that or you don't. You replied negatively when it was formulated harshly for the indies, and positively to the same thing when it was formulated nicely giving officials the caps. So you're not only unable to formulate what you actually want after the third time you're asked to do so, you're also incapable of answering consistently when offered multiple choice questions.
Either I want that or not, exactly. I can have my choice, but in the end I alone won't be the one deciding which one will be in effect. I expressed a negative approach based on one circumstance of the many when it was formulated harshly for the indies and expressed my opinion about what you wrote being a possible option when it was formulated nicely giving officials the caps. Believe it or not, but the world is far less black and white than how you try to picture it, regardless of how far you go at trying to twist my words.
(06-18-2014, 04:48 PM)Infinitus Wrote: Official factions decide what standards they want to set. Then they complain that indies aren't abiding by the standards that the officials set for themselves. Then some official guy tries to control them or screw them over as best as he can.
Such standards aren't that hard to follow, basically aren't more than what Jinx listed as well. Follow the ID and the Lore of the faction you have chosen for your character to roleplay as. But even many fail to do that. The indies who I met so far are either capable to uphold these standards or do not care about them at all. Are you trying to defend indies acting out of the lore of their characters, factions, breaking ID limitations? If an official faction does that, they can be held responsible far easier than a nameless individual, how would you make sure indies won't just rename and restart what they've been doing if they get caught and questioned?
(06-18-2014, 04:48 PM)Infinitus Wrote: Are many of these "standards" that official factions say they abide by, or are expected to abide by, actually detrimental to fun, and doing more harm than good?
Some sure are. But those standards sure weren't put in place by indy players.
I assume that was a rhetorical question as you were so eager to answer it yourself, trying to push your view more and more about how bad and evil official factions are. Or do you expect an answer to that question from anyone else?
(06-18-2014, 04:48 PM)Infinitus Wrote: The problem is that you keep repeating the same stuff about how you want fair treatment, but you don't say how you exactly you want to improve things. And when presented with multiple choice questions out of desperation to know what you actually want, you fail to even answer them consistently, and your answers would actually make things the opposite of fair.
The problem is that you fail to realize that fair treatment does not equal with officials being held responsible for their actions while indies aren't, but they all get mostly the same perks. I've answered your question way before you appeared in the thread, Karlotta, that you are too lazy to read back is not my problem.
(06-18-2014, 04:48 PM)Infinitus Wrote: Official factions HAVE control, over the direction the diplomacy goes, over who gets their rep adjusted, the higher-ups can even give order to indies as long as they aren't in contradiction to lore. With that power of control comes the responsibility to use it properly, inseparably.
Most of the diplomacy is still considered player-driven only and not strictly canon. Did I mention I still don't know if I can declare Councilmen collaborating with Outcasts traitors? Rephacks take a lot of effort to be carried out for little to no irreversible (or hardly reversible) effects, I already told you this too. You keep repeating yourslef just as how you claim I do without heeding my words.
(06-18-2014, 04:48 PM)Infinitus Wrote: Then why aren't you lobbying for that instead?
I believe I did in the past, in an other thread. Should you really care about the subject, you'd check it yourself, but no, you are obviously here to argue against official factions.
(06-18-2014, 04:48 PM)Infinitus Wrote: It prevents people like you from ruining the fun of a great number of players by deciding everything for them. Sadly, you and a lot of other people care too little for other people's fun, and care too much about your own sense of superiority that you get from your pixelworld, to be able to understand why these restrictions to faction power are needed.
It's been fun to debate with you, K. See you next time on an other alt of yours.
PS: Wait... you forgot to rant at Joe and Alley, don't forget that next time you come here. I almost didn't recognize you because of that.
Either I want that or not, exactly. I can have my choice, but in the end I alone won't be the one deciding which one will be in effect. I expressed a negative approach based on one circumstance of the many when it was formulated harshly for the indies and expressed my opinion about what you wrote being a possible option when it was formulated nicely giving officials the caps. Believe it or not, but the world is far less black and white than how you try to picture it, regardless of how far you go at trying to twist my words.
Urgh.
Lets try baby steps.
The question was: "What do you want to do to fix what you are complaining about?"
You were expressing dis-satisfaction with how official factions are treated compared to indies. If you are going to complain, you should at least offer a solution. No "maybe if thats like this then maybe that", but a concrete thing that you want done. If you don't know, and you dont even know which course of action you want taken, then stop complaining.
Instead, you beat around the bush lacking the courage to say what you want, maybe because you are unable to defend any of your demands, and you answer the question "do you want admins/devs to do this so that you will stop whining, or do you not)" with an empty phrase like "oh you know, its not all black and white but shades of grey". Well if you can't even answer that simple question, how do you want people to put serious consideration to your whining about poor official factions?
(06-18-2014, 08:15 PM)Thyrzul Wrote:
(06-18-2014, 04:48 PM)Infinitus Wrote: Official factions decide what standards they want to set. Then they complain that indies aren't abiding by the standards that the officials set for themselves. Then some official guy tries to control them or screw them over as best as he can.
Such standards aren't that hard to follow, basically aren't more than what Jinx listed as well. Follow the ID and the Lore of the faction you have chosen for your character to roleplay as.First you complain that official factions have to abide to standards, then you turn around "oh but the standards arent hard to follow" when you talk about how indies should follow them.
(06-18-2014, 08:15 PM)Thyrzul Wrote: But even many fail to do that. The indies who I met so far are either capable to uphold these standards or do not care about them at all. Are you trying to defend indies acting out of the lore of their characters, factions, breaking ID limitations? If an official faction does that, they can be held responsible far easier than a nameless individual, how would you make sure indies won't just rename and restart what they've been doing if they get caught and questioned?
I'm not defending anyone who acts out of lore or out of character, I'm defending indies who don't do that from being punished for things they didn't do. If caps get restricted to official factions, those indies would. Any individual who acts out of lore or out of character should be made responsible for it, because doing that is actually against the rules. If the admins don't hold them responsible, you may complain to them (or to us, if you want) with concrete examples. Generally, renaming your ship or deleting it and continuing to play on another one doesn't save you from a sanction because there are several ways to find out about it. As if you didnt know.
(06-18-2014, 08:15 PM)Thyrzul Wrote:
(06-18-2014, 04:48 PM)Infinitus Wrote: Are many of these "standards" that official factions say they abide by, or are expected to abide by, actually detrimental to fun, and doing more harm than good?
Some sure are. But those standards sure weren't put in place by indy players.
I assume that was a rhetorical question as you were so eager to answer it yourself, trying to push your view more and more about how bad and evil official factions are. Or do you expect an answer to that question from anyone else?
You have correctly identified a rhetorical question. Congratulations (apparently you failed at it in some of my previous posts). But you may answer even a rhetorical question if that is your wish. I for one would not mind discussing with you which of the "behavioral guidelines" that official factions are imposing on themselves and on everyone they meet are actually pretty detrimental to gameplay and do (a lot) more harm than they do good.
(06-18-2014, 08:15 PM)Thyrzul Wrote:
(06-18-2014, 04:48 PM)Infinitus Wrote: The problem is that you keep repeating the same stuff about how you want fair treatment, but you don't say how you exactly you want to improve things. And when presented with multiple choice questions out of desperation to know what you actually want, you fail to even answer them consistently, and your answers would actually make things the opposite of fair.
The problem is that you fail to realize that fair treatment does not equal with officials being held responsible for their actions while indies aren't, but they all get mostly the same perks. I've answered your question way before you appeared in the thread, Karlotta, that you are too lazy to read back is not my problem.
The problem is that you keep repeating this part which is simply not true:
(06-18-2014, 08:15 PM)Thyrzul Wrote: officials being held responsible for their actions while indies aren't
Indies are held responsible for their actions just like official factions. The only difference is that an indie who is in no way associated with another indy is not held responsible for that indies actions, while members of a (official or non official) faction are also made responsible for or identified with, to some extent, the actions of the people they chose to associate with by being in the same official faction.
I'm glad you've finally stopped pretending that official factions are also made responsible for indy's actions by anyone but themselves. Some progress I guess.
Why dont you finally start rolling out some valid examples. There are lots of examples where official factions were not held responsible for indies actions, and lots of examples where indies were held responsible for their own actions, in the sanction notification subforum. Where are your examples?
(06-18-2014, 08:15 PM)Thyrzul Wrote:
(06-18-2014, 04:48 PM)Infinitus Wrote: Official factions HAVE control, over the direction the diplomacy goes, over who gets their rep adjusted, the higher-ups can even give order to indies as long as they aren't in contradiction to lore. With that power of control comes the responsibility to use it properly, inseparably.
Most of the diplomacy is still considered player-driven only and not strictly canon. Did I mention I still don't know if I can declare Councilmen collaborating with Outcasts traitors?
Well if you don't know if you can do that, why don't you ask the admins? And if they don't answer, take it as a yes? The fact that you are unable to deal with this situation only illustrates again that you are unable to properly deal with the power that you already have, but you still ask for more.
(06-18-2014, 08:15 PM)Thyrzul Wrote: Rephacks take a lot of effort to be carried out for little to no irreversible (or hardly reversible) effects, I already told you this too. You keep repeating yourslef just as how you claim I do without heeding my words.
If it's the renaming and doing the same thing again that you're worried about... forcing someone to rename is a punishment because you're destroying their char and existing RP of that ship. That hurts if they enjoyed playing the char, I feel it every time admins ban my ingame accounts. If they dont care for RP and do the same thing again, admins step up the punishments every time someone misbehaves, that goes for everyone (well, it should theoretically).
If its too much work for you to ask them to do it, then maybe you shouldnt ask to be official, because that raised the question why you want to be official at all. Or, we can go for the question again: What do you actually WANT to do to fix this thing that you describe as a huge problem? Do you want to give every official faction member the power to set someone's rep permanently on all their ships via flhook plugin? Do you want admins to do it for you on your whim, without you having to show that its actually justified? Do you want to give official faction the right to goof off like that and not get punished for it? Before you go for that demand again... taking cap ships away from indies does absolutely nothing to fix the problem of people goofing off on chars.
(06-18-2014, 08:15 PM)Thyrzul Wrote:
(06-18-2014, 04:48 PM)Infinitus Wrote: Then why aren't you lobbying for that instead?
I believe I did in the past, in an other thread. Should you really care about the subject, you'd check it yourself, but no, you are obviously here to argue against official factions.
Like it's everyone's duty to read all of Master Thyrzul's posts and memorize everything he ever said. Here, you brought up that example to justify your demand of more power/advantages to official factions (which would do nothing what so ever to fix this), instead of asking for the REAL solution of that particular problem.
(06-18-2014, 08:15 PM)Thyrzul Wrote:
(06-18-2014, 04:48 PM)Infinitus Wrote: It prevents people like you from ruining the fun of a great number of players by deciding everything for them. Sadly, you and a lot of other people care too little for other people's fun, and care too much about your own sense of superiority that you get from your pixelworld, to be able to understand why these restrictions to faction power are needed.
It's been fun to debate with you, K. See you next time on an other alt of yours.
PS: Wait... you forgot to rant at Joe and Alley, don't forget that next time you come here. I almost didn't recognize you because of that.
Why did you quote that part when you say absolutely nothing to answer it? Just want to make it look as if you had anything to counter it?
I dont rant at people, I rant at things that are said and done by them. If you're looking for anything like personal insults (I mean personal insults, not accurate descriptions of their behavior ingame or on the forum), threats of violence, expressing death wishes, using de-humanizing language like calling people cockroaches, or alleging sexual relations with dogs and horses, you will find them in none of my posts, but only in the posts of the people you claim (or who claim) that I have some sort of personal beef with them.
But if you insist... yes, JihadJoe and Alley showed similar patterns of behavior and opinions that were equaly stupid, selfish, and counterproductive as the ones you show. While, like you, they did whine a lot about how the people that they treated like dirt werent co-operative obedient enough towards them afterwards, and they did also refuse any co-operation and help towards the people who they expected to unquestioningly do their bidding, a small difference towards you is that they didnt whine as much about how they're not getting enough preferential treatment from admins. Because... they actually got it.
Happy?
I guess now you'll use that to hide your immense trouble to justify anything you said, and ignore the rest of what I said.
User was banned for: Karlotta
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(06-19-2014, 07:50 PM)Drrobe Wrote: Well an indie may have just started a war between Kusari and Liberty...
Didn't the [LN] already try to start one back in the time when I said ***Humans go home! To SOL!*** to them in Iota, and then they were mean to me and then they went back through Kusari and were mean to the KNF too?
EDIT:
And then Haste posted screenshots of how mean the [LN] were to my nomad, saying that they should uphold higher standards than that, as official factions. Note: That was Haste who complained, not me. I thought the whole thing was hilarious. I think Haste wanted to be nice to poor me because I helped him transfer 4 archangels to his reaver ship a few minutes before. Or something. Whatever. Carry on.
User was banned for: Karlotta
Time left: (Permanent)
(06-19-2014, 07:50 PM)Drrobe Wrote: Well an indie may have just started a war between Kusari and Liberty...
Didn't the [LN] already try to start one back in the time when I said ***Humans go home! To SOL!*** to them in Iota, and then they were mean to me and then they went back through Kusari and were mean to the KNF too?
Long story short: LSF agents were in Shikoku chasing a criminal. When we arrived, some Indie and official Kusari Naval/Police showed up and we RP'ed. My FL froze, and when it came to, all other =LSF= left but I was surrounded being told I was under arrest. I attempted to move, a indie Kusari BS fired on my, reducing my shield to 0. They told me that if I moved again, they'd fire more. So I told my companions that I was fired upon, the =LSF= returned, and a full-fledged battle followed suit.
So all because of FL freezing, and an indie firing on me, looks like a war may be breaking out between Liberty and Kusari.
(06-19-2014, 08:02 PM)Drrobe Wrote: Long story short: LSF agents were in Shikoku chasing a criminal. When we arrived, some Indie and official Kusari Naval/Police showed up and we RP'ed. My FL froze, and when it came to, all other =LSF= left but I was surrounded being told I was under arrest. I attempted to move, a indie Kusari BS fired on my, reducing my shield to 0. They told me that if I moved again, they'd fire more. So I told my companions that I was fired upon, the =LSF= returned, and a full-fledged battle followed suit.
So all because of FL freezing, and an indie firing on me, looks like a war may be breaking out between Liberty and Kusari.
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