Negative consequences of moving best premium scrap selling points to Gallia

[Swifty]

lol...

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[Thyrzul]

So you agree, smugglers shouldn't be required to dodge lawfuls in order to be successful and the only reason they are pegged as such is player enforced. Glad it only took 2 pages worth to get to it.

Umm, no, I wasn't really saying that. But do you know what? Yes, if a smuggler manages to persuade them well enough to let him go, be it through dialogue or victory in combat, they can also be successful in continuing and eventually finishing their job.

But we all know that the best way for a prey to win a 'predator vs prey' game is to avoid confrontation in the first place, entirely, consideration of further options come after failure at that. This, however, is not enforced by any players, this is enforced by natural behavior of living things of inequal strenght.

I'd be glad if you wouldn't twist my words though.

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[Croft]

I didn't twist your words, that part was your own doing in your rather bizzare attempt to mask the underlying meaning which is plain english was "Smugglers only need to hide if they want to make money but only because they lose it if they get caught." That leads me back to the original idea of limitations on penalising smugglers (woo for circuitive arguements).

Let's get down to the bare bones here, Laura has made her position clear that she doesn't want to give smugglers a slightly easier time because her ideas of RP won't allow it, yet the overall point of the thread was to try and increase smuggling so that the RFP has something to do. It's the same with Thyrzul's predator/prey idea.
Can you not see the painfully obvious flaw here? You want folks to play a role that goes against the entire purpose of the mod, the sheer foundation of what has kept Disco alive all this time, meeting other people. You don't think how you treat another player has any bearing or effect on how the mod fares?

But hey as Laura made clear, her faction's RP is far more important than the players who allow that RP to happen.

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Jimmy The Rat | Croft's Feedback | The Rat Pack

[Thyrzul]

I myself don't explicitly want players to play smugglers, but if they choose to do so, do it properly then. At which point we can indeed agree that motives of preys can in general be against the purpose of the mod, but that's part of the game.

Preys are inferior in strenght and thus seek soltitude, predators are superior and thus seek confrontation. Sometimes there is no interaction at one specific point of space between predator and prey and both can continue on their way, perhaps having other interactions instead, that is generally good for the prey as it stayed alive. Sometimes there is interaction between predator and prey, but up to the participants it can end up without combat (which is good for the prey), with combat but a successful escape of the prey (which is good for the prey) or the escape failes and the prey dies (which is bad for the prey). Counting all these I somehow found more favorable outcomes for preys than unfavorable ones, even if we take out the 'interaction without combat' option, it's still 2 to 1. Tell me more about how this situation is bad for the prey.

Why do you think smugglers should haul contraband only to get caught? Why do you think police should treat them even more lightly? What is the point of a predator role if it cannot fulfill it at the end? What would be the point of catching smugglers if police gonna have to treat them well in order not to discourage them from creating activity in one's own ZoI? What content would such interaction have, how would it look like? A tea party perhaps?

You seem to be so much about forcing interactions for the sake of having interactions that you forget that predator roles already do that, by their very nature, as well as that prey roles are totally opposite to that, by their very nature. It's fine the way it is.

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[Laura C.]

Well, this went off topic quite a lot. Oh well...

Let's get down to the bare bones here, Laura has made her position clear that she doesn't want to give smugglers a slightly easier time because her ideas of RP won't allow it

I´m pretty sure I didn´t say that...

Carsten is still just human being and there are ways how to convince her to look other way. Though definitely not by money and definitely not for some types of cargo. But I would feel bad if I would refuse excellent RP in certain situations just because "I´m stern cop which has no mercy and gives no chances". It makes sense for me inRP that you can do this when you are alone in space and no witnesses are around (yes, it is risky, but she is now in position to be able to cover her back in case of possible problem). But mainly as a player, I don´t want to say to other player "man, your plan and story was best I ever heard, but I can´t let you go because I´m stern cop". Yes, I am RPer, but I have point where I switch to "this was great fun, I will not spoil it by being hardcore RPer when I can play along and make this remembering encounter".

But if by "giving smugglers an easier time" you meant that idea of letting people go with part of the contraband, then I´m guilty, sure. I simply couldn´t feel RPing cop anymore if this should be what is expected as norm from cop/lawful on RP server. My immersion would be completely gone. Though in that case smugglers would have easier time because I (and I´m pretty sure some other players I know) would stop playing cops entirely.
I mean, do you really propose do give up on even basic principles of certain RP role on the RP server? Because the action you propose is entirely ooRP, there is no way how you can justify it inRP. I mean smugglers don´t have to be those hiding guys like Thyrzul is describing them, they also can for example guys which likes adrenalin rides (apart from making lot of money) so they on purpose smuggle under cop noses. Ask in AFC about that... It´s like football hooligans which show a finger to cop or swear at him just because they enjoy the confrontation. But cops letting smugglers go with part of load of for example slaves or hard drugs being usual cop behaviour? I do lot of compromises between RP and gaming attitude on Disco, but this is far beyond anything I could find acceptable.

You don't think how you treat another player has any bearing or effect on how the mod fares?

Wait a moment, now you are mixing the behavior of players to each other, and RP characters between each other. Do you imply that if I play my role as a cop they way it is suppose to work (and I don´t even mention I could even play RP role of for example xenophobic or overzealous cop, bending the laws to be nasty against some characters), I´m doing something wrong on RP server? It that´s the case, I guess it´s time to delete "RP 24/7" from the server name. We are not talking about blowing up people with /l1 and /l2 lines, trolling them with CDs, ordering them to leave house space for silly reasons, shouting at them in //PMs and such - this is what I call fouls on behaviour between players which can affect interest in the mod. But when playing some RP role USUAL way it is supposed to be RPed was added to this list?

But hey as Laura made clear, her faction's RP is far more important than the players who allow that RP to happen.

No, but what you propose is that we should behave in way which can hardly be called RP. Sure, it work both ways, there is point when it´s time to step out of RP and don´t forget this is still just a game which is supposed to be fun. But also there is point when it´s time to step out of "this is still just a game which is supposed to be fun" and don´t forget we are on RP server. It is eternal conflict which doesn´t have definite solution, it is about compromises. But you and Thyrzul seems to be representatives of extremes. Thyrzul´s hardcore RP attitude and yours "lets do everything to promote player interaction even beyond the point of reasonable RP". Positions of both of you are simply the extreme poles on "RP vs computer game" scale, but you both should not forget that majority of players are simply somewhere inbetween and it´s not wrong to try to find balance and compromise, but those are reasonable only to certain point (which, of course, players have set differently).

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On a ragebreak. Or ragequit. Time will tell.

[Croft]

You never said that your RP won't allow you to give smugglers an easier time and the next paragraph down:

"But if by "giving smugglers an easier time" you meant that idea of letting people go with part of the contraband, then I´m guilty, sure. I simply couldn´t feel RPing cop anymore if this should be what is expected as norm from cop/lawful on RP server. My immersion would be completely gone. Though in that case smugglers would have easier time because I (and I´m pretty sure some other players I know) would stop playing cops entirely."

Your RP won't allow you to give smugglers a slightly easier time. Interesting contradiction.

What exactly do you want from this Laura? You want more smugglers to pass through Rheinland but won't give them a reason beyond credits to do so?
You've already stated that you don't like waiting near jumpholes to ambush smugglers yet you are unwilling to see those you do meet a slightly easier time, ensuring the only ones you meet are either willing/foolish or ambushed at jumpholes.

No, but what you propose is that we should behave in way which can hardly be called RP. Sure, it work both ways, there is point when it´s time to step out of RP and don´t forget this is still just a game which is supposed to be fun. But also there is point when it´s time to step out of "this is still just a game which is supposed to be fun" and don´t forget we are on RP server. It is eternal conflict which doesn´t have definite solution, it is about compromises. But you and Thyrzul seems to be representatives of extremes.

Perhaps you missed Thyrzul's post stating that he doesn't actually want people to play smugglers? Hardly an advocate for RP and honestly makes me wonder why with such apathy for smuggling that he even posted in the thread.

I myself don't explicitly want players to play smugglers, but if they choose to do so, do it properly then. At which point we can indeed agree that motives of preys can in general be against the purpose of the mod, but that's part of the game.

I'm not arguing for extremes, I'm arguing for a little more EQUALITY in making a role that has thus far been pushed by players to be the complete opposite of what this entire mod is about. You know how we can change that? A simple "Yeah I'll try that."
I can only hope that after your route is applied and the absence of smugglers remains the same that you'll consider just for a moment, that perhaps you should try to be a little easier on those whom you depend upon to survive.

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Jimmy The Rat | Croft's Feedback | The Rat Pack

[Thyrzul]

You want more smugglers to pass through Rheinland but won't give them a reason beyond credits to do so?

What else would be the (inRP) point of smuggling for a mere smuggler besides the extra credits they can get with contraband compared to the less profitable legal commodities? We don't need pussy police, what we need here are contraband routes which are more profitable than legal routes (which we usually have, this thread is originally asking for one more to be restored), and proper money sinks to retain the value of credits in the economy (which we don't really have yet).

Perhaps you missed Thyrzul's post stating that he doesn't actually want people to play smugglers? Hardly an advocate for RP and honestly makes me wonder why with such apathy for smuggling that he even posted in the thread.

Perhaps you missed the second half of that very same sentence (dude, you even quoted it, you can't be this oblivious, can you?), in which I stated that however if somebody chooses to play the role of a smuggler, I indeed want them to play that role properly. Tl; dr - play it well, or not at all. I hope this clears it up, I hope you quit taking things out of context from now on and I hope I won't have to ask you a third time not to misinterpret the content of my posts in a way to fit your needs.

I'm arguing for a little more EQUALITY in making a role that has thus far been pushed by players to be the complete opposite of what this entire mod is about.

You are pretty much asking for equality in a situation designed to be inequal by mother nature herself. This is something not only you but all those picking a side in a predator vs prey game should know and acknowledge. However, despite the inequality, it is quite balanced out, you can't really say any of the sides having no chance to win. Do you think you can? Read my latest post again. Without twisting it in any way, if I may ask.

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[nOmnomnOm]

So you agree, smugglers shouldn't be required to dodge lawfuls in order to be successful and the only reason they are pegged as such is player enforced. Glad it only took 2 pages worth to get to it.

Umm, no, I wasn't really saying that. But do you know what? Yes, if a smuggler manages to persuade them well enough to let him go, be it through dialogue or victory in combat, they can also be successful in continuing and eventually finishing their job.

But we all know that the best way for a prey to win a 'predator vs prey' game is to avoid confrontation in the first place, entirely, consideration of further options come after failure at that. This, however, is not enforced by any players, this is enforced by natural behavior of living things of inequal strenght.

I'd be glad if you wouldn't twist my words though.

you forget the part when even if the smuggler wins he has to deal with a fine sent to them on forums anyway. You cannot win if you encounter a cop. Only if you convince inRP
Edit: You can also loose twice as a smuggler. Death in-game and also forum fines.

[nOmnomnOm]

I mean smugglers don´t have to be those hiding guys like Thyrzul is describing them, they also can for example guys which likes adrenalin rides (apart from making lot of money) so they on purpose smuggle under cop noses. Ask in AFC about that... It´s like football hooligans which show a finger to cop or swear at him just because they enjoy the confrontation.

Alright since my faction came up on it's own...

here is what i've been doing and also ill state my wishes.

What I/AFC has been doing in the past or till now is things like:

-Past: Getting 1 contraband commodity (becasue insults dont make cops chase after you) and show it to the cop. The cop will then chase after you to make you drop it on death while you tease him. Stimulation of a cop chase. We didnt complain about how many cops ganked us.
Problem: We got LSF giving us a hard time threatening too much for me to worry about the future of the faction.
Present: We go on the edge of what is allowed...

-Past: Smuggling using the lanes becasue it would be the fastest way.
Problem: The issue is not about getting caught or not. hell... we loved to run away from cops... the issue is right after when all that will happen is a message from the cops giving you a fine and a deadline to pay it or your faction goes ZIP.
present: Use the lanes when no one is around. Use the holes or other methods to play cat and mouse when cops are around.

-Past: Race events where I invited cops to join for chasing us on non-armored light fighters (that being us)
Problem: No one came, really. Maybe just 1 guy.
Present: I dont even bother with it anymore becasue of the lack of interest I see.

Those are the 3 main ones that involve this discussion.

The general problem is that if i were to continue this behavior of #1 and #2 (#3 is no problem 99% of the time) I predict AFC would have been kicked out of every house by now. Hell... having even 1 contraband is horrible ? Ughh....

My wish is basically that cop factions would not link 1 person to the whole of the faction in terms of smuggling. I don't really mind if one ship from the {AFC}- gets an FR5 for it if that needs to happen. It could suck, yes... but still I'd let it go. This also comes into play when I get messages to the faction for a guy's smuggling screw-up. How inRP is the faction headquarters responsible for the guy's actions? The club is grown adults. Not baby-sitters. Even when I state otherwise it's basically "Nope you should have not picked him and been more careful when recruiting" As if to tell me via oorp that with RP comms.

oh and over-the-top fines for things suck as well. Especially like above I state that the smuggler will die and THEN on top of that needs to pay again. (and AFC is deliberately closed economy so dont tell me we have lots of cash on other ships to pay for it)

So the wish is:
Not have FR5ing for whole factions for instances pertaining to individuals in the group.
Not have huge fines that don't make sense compared to the situation.
Not have comms directed to headquaters insisting it's the leader's fault becasue he has to baby-sit adults inRP and keep track of everyone. (well you can do it inRP but... just annoying as)

The result:
More chases will happen.
More risks will be taken.
More silly annoy-the-cops RP.
Hell... lets make a watering-hole for jail RP even. I wouldnt mind if a character from the faction got caught and got arrested and had to RP in a jail for some time. Would be cool.
From the above maybe prison breaks like the one I did before. You could FR5 the ship, again. But if the faction will possibly get at whole involved then I wont risk it.

And much more fun...


My issue is about SUSTAINABILITY
How long I can do these naughty actions with cops until the faction gets stabbed in the back becasue "RP Consequences" crap?
How far can I take it until it turns on me?


On the last note: when I was creating the faction I was told by a few people that I should go to each offical cop faction leader and discuss this issue. Some agreed and just wanted a bribe so inRP it makes sense and we could have some fun. Others said 3 strikes and you are out...

Again. Sustainability. How long can my herd of deer be alive before they all die out?


So.. it doesn't surprise me that cops get less activity in this sense. I'm just a bit frightened to progress considering all that I worked for could be destroyed just becasue we wanted to play "cops and robbers"


Edit: If you want proof of these things that I listed then I'll send it over.

Also I forgot to mention I have even an event that involves us chasing away from cops while carrying contraband. We did it 2 times already with little chase or not even at all. :/

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[Croft]

Thyrzul I'm not going on yet another round-about discussion, you don't want things to change and are happy to relgate smuggling to glorified powertraders. There isn't much room for ideas in that narrowmindedness.

Also Nom, I'm not quite sure if it is still the case but apparently anyone can submit a screenshot of a smugglers cargo to generate a fine. If its true, it speaks absolute volumnes.

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Jimmy The Rat | Croft's Feedback | The Rat Pack