My thoughts concerning factions/Indies and other such stuff.

[Reverend Del]

Because I won't give them capships. Magoo is about the only independent Rogue in a fighter I've seen since I started the faction. Two other indies won't join becuase of time constraints, the rest I've seen fly OC destroyers.

But I talk to Rogue indies I don't force them into anything. There is discussion because I will -not- have it any other way.

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[Praetyre]

Heh.. the thing Zachary co-leads is actually meant to be a single squadron of the LPI, not the whole LPI (probably a misnomer), at least according to him. Of course, the LPI is silly, so that's another factor.

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[n00bl3t]

Because I won't give them capships. Magoo is about the only independent Rogue in a fighter I've seen since I started the faction. Two other indies won't join becuase of time constraints, the rest I've seen fly OC destroyers.

But I talk to Rogue indies I don't force them into anything. There is discussion because I will -not- have it any other way.

Kudos to you for having the capability to deal with it this way.

Yeah all the LSF I've met have been pretty supportive. (There was this time...trader...the amount of patience this LSF guy had was enormous.)

Edit: Admantine I'm going to the game...

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Anything I say is not intended as offensive, and to try and deliberately misinterpret it as such would be an attempt at trolling via misrepresentation.

It's not a conspiracy, it's localised bias. They're not intelligent enough to form a conspiracy.

[AdamantineFist]

I'd like to note that it's late and I haven't taken the time to read everything here, so some of this might already have been addressed.

For factions like criminals, corporations, Zoners, yes. But for factions like the LN and RM, no. They are all led by a single body and/or leader. There cannot possibly been an "LN who is not part of the LN" or "RM who is not part of the RM" under logic.

I agree with you here, yet I think we should note that the LN is not restricting indies much.

The problem arises when the leaders of the country are roleplayed. Otherwise each and every ID'd but non-tagged member of a military is no more independent than those who are tagged.

It's meta-gaming through and through...

Edit:
Hmm. It'd be nice for both sides to listen.

And your problem with this is? We are acting within a community of people, and we have to respect the history set by others. You can't just waltz into a history class and inform them that the Romans, in fact, did battle with laser rifles and expect it to be considered true. People RPing as heads of state merely add more depth to the whole game. Also, if there is a navy, then of course it has a chain of command, which results in commanding officers and heads of state. If you want to join some sort of military force, then you obviously want to be within such a chain of command. That's what militaries are all about. If you don't want that, then stay away from joining a military. It's that simple.

Thing is, most indie, as well as some factions (however it is much more rare since they are a whole of players willing to do something big for a whole) only perceive what is surrounding them from the 1st person
"ME, MY SHIP, MY INDEPENDENCE!"
Most of them, don't realize the problems some factions are facing due to some of them. For example, Liberty factions must pay for the OORPness of some players ( PVP gets turned off), Corsairs space is overcrowded and full of caps unbalancing fights, then their enemies whine because they always fight in an unfair environment. What most indies don't realize is that, FACTIONS ARE RESPONSIBLE OF INDIES AND THEIR DECISIONS; They do something wrong, faction pays for it and nothing really happen to the indy most of the time. That is one of the reasons why factions try to keep the number of indies small.

This is why I dislike having a lots of indies in NY, An Indie, to fly a capital ship, SHOULD first deserve it! Not just go to the shipyard and BUY it!

That is my 2 cents

Agreed in full.

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[ScornStar]

I personally believe that the top most positions in NPC represented factions should be held by Admin forum characters. Let admin make the laws and the players enforce it or develope policy towards the crime. That way player X with Grand Uber Admiral Pwnzor the 361st doesnt lock up all the options for Player Y who just got here two days ago.

The faction should set an example. The factions DO NOT have authority. They can OOC thier observation and guidence to noobs but cannot tell them how to play. Otherwise its Eugenics with imagination. Say they people were guided by Cap huggers, as opposed to Fighter jocks.

Everyone teaches everyone new they come accross to play the way they want, and think is right. Thats not always right. There should be well writen and deliberately vaige in some places to prohibit actions that cannot be done and allow things we have not thought of. If adjust ment need to be made then they need to be made in the rules.

When it comes down to it only the admin can sanction anyway. Unless you plan to give faction leaders sanction rights? Eppy with sanction powers. Think about that. With out a story ready for publish or some close ties you can kiss playing anything but a non barrel roleing NPC, like all the other Sabers I see in Omicron Alpha. ( sorry for the stab Eppy, My POV :D)

If anything maybe resumes should be submitted for Admin with creditial demonstrateing leadership skills in multiple areas as well as experience in RPGs. Some one who demonstrates the ability to solve problem with minimum fuss and maximum fairness. We need machine. Who cannot be swayed by accociations. Server police No.

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[Laowai]

People RPing as heads of state merely add more depth to the whole game. Also, if there is a navy, then of course it has a chain of command, which results in commanding officers and heads of state. If you want to join some sort of military force, then you obviously want to be within such a chain of command. That's what militaries are all about. If you don't want that, then stay away from joining a military. It's that simple.

This missed the point somewhat and as i said in my post, skirts around what i believe the core issue is here, esp in regards to the RM, but by extension - the roles of other military factions as well.

The Players you're referring to, Indies as it is, might want to play as part of a military and even in a chain of command - but, they might NOT want to play in a faction. The issue here is that certain factions have declared that they ARE the chain of command for an NPC faction. period and there are no alternatives, (i discussed this in my previous post on about page 3 or 4, pls read:)) No where in the server rules does it say that A: a faction can do that and B: that a player must obey that decree to play as a part of that NPC faction.
Now no one is talking about scrapping RP, at worst whats being talked about is ammending it or allowing it to be flexible. Its all very well to RP the role of a head of state if all the players agree on it but at the end of the day, all of the players wont = simply because its impossible that they do, unless they join a faction and read its literature - this effectivly bars a non faction member from joining said faction and cleverly, either by design or by accident gives a group of players complete control over an entire NPC faction. Again, i believe this was not intended by the game developer (we could ask him) or in the spirit of the game.

I will use my Corsair indie as an example. He is fiercly independent, and intends to remain so, however, he does work with the main corsair factions and listens to their decrees etc, he reserves the right to act on his own consience where individual issues are concerned, and being a pirate he does have more leeway than a military pilot might - however while he may be a thorn in their side by not agreeing with what they say, no one can claim that he doesnt play as a Corsair should. Pertaining to the RM, there is no reason why an indie player cannot play a RM id'd character and still work with the existing RM faction - sure the "you must follow my orders" factor would be less, however, if they are truly Role playing a Rheinland military character the motivation behind the outcome of RP would have certain similarities.
I have always personally objected to any player RP'ing the role of a head of state, or an overlord of an entire NPC faction as i have always said - and have been proven right - that it would lead to precisely this form of conflict.

As i said in my previous post, this issue is less about Indies and Factions and more about who controls the server and the rules of the server as they currently stand (For more detail pls see my previous post)

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[Asymptotic]

Should just make a list of npc factions like that people should be warned to stay away from unless they like their RP being handed to them. Let's begin:

- LSF
- Rheinland Military
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Help me add more!

Praetyre, before you flame me again, I'll have you know that having sections of a navy or otherwise lawful force is completely reasonable.

[Ion]

Scornstar -

The Idea of non-faction PC house leaders was something that I lightly touched on in the debate, but was not carried through the debate.

I actually feel that we can make something out of this, so that the factions who control the military do not have the lawmaking and political powers of the actual government.

Having admins do it is out of the question, they more then have their hands full.

The next logical step of course would be HOW to find and choose said individuals, choosing the correct individuals for the position.

Based on a history of RP here, you could have a forum wide vote, utilizing the democratic process, or the admins could choose said individuals, or said individuals could be decided by a vote by only the local factions (including trader, merc and BH factions).

Without such leaders, a self-nominated Leader of the military by default would have control over all processes which should be governmental (hence my reference to military law).

other than this, I have made all my views known in the debate, I have no need of repeating myself.

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[Praetyre]

Praetyre, before you flame me again, I'll have you know that having sections of a navy or otherwise lawful force is completely reasonable.

I'll also have you know that A. I never made a personal attack against you B. Sections of navies and lawful forces are not named after their parent organisations.

So, for example, there would be the 44th Corps of the US Army, but there isn't a subsection of the US Army called the US Army. Nor are said organisations headed over by ranks equivalent to the rank of the head of their parent organisation.

So, that would be a reasonable argument if a faction called, say, the 400th Battlegroup was trying to restrict Liberty Navy roleplay, and was headed over by a Commodore, but in this case we are discussing factions like the LN/RM, headed over by a Fleet Admiral and Grosseadmirals respectively.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

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[kingvaillant]

LSF RP is extremely complicated, even some LSF members can hardly figure it all out. As you may have seen from your In-game experience, The line between LN and LSF RP is very narrow. But the effects and impacts are much more bigger

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