My thoughts concerning factions/Indies and other such stuff.

[song]

Scornstar -

The Idea of non-faction PC house leaders was something that I lightly touched on in the debate, but was not carried through the debate.

I actually feel that we can make something out of this, so that the factions who control the military do not have the lawmaking and political powers of the actual government.

Having admins do it is out of the question, they more then have their hands full.

The next logical step of course would be HOW to find and choose said individuals, choosing the correct individuals for the position.

Based on a history of RP here, you could have a forum wide vote, utilizing the democratic process, or the admins could choose said individuals, or said individuals could be decided by a vote by only the local factions (including trader, merc and BH factions).

Without such leaders, a self-nominated Leader of the military by default would have control over all processes which should be governmental (hence my reference to military law).

other than this, I have made all my views known in the debate, I have no need of repeating myself.

I think this is truly the only answer and I wish we would just do it.

You could start the whole process very easily--ask Jinx to start selecting nominees. He doesn't have to head it and stay in it--just start selecting initial candidates.

Of all the people hands down I have seen post, Jinx remains the most rational, calm and balanced at all times. I'd also recommend Dusty Lens.

There are others but I am fairly new here and wouldn't presume. I'd have no problem with those two being chair and co-chair to get it going.

What's anyone else think? Someone get this puppy started. Even if it doesn't work out, it is so worth the try.

Applicants could apply privately to Jinx and Dusty and they could select a "ruling panel" to start out with. Factions and individuals could work with them and input ideas but then they would make the final proposals and people could vote on them.

Anything is better than nothing. Once you have it fleshed out, submit it to the admins for a thumbs up or down.

Good saying an old friend of mine used to say, "You can't steer a parked car. Sometimes you have to push it to a hill to get it going."

---

<span style="font-family:System">Hogosha Exile</span>
The Journal of Benjo Dokosai

visit

[chovynz]

I think anyone elected or Admin chosen, would still have this same problem.
There will always be people that go "You cant tell me what to do. No matter how you became leader."

---

Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.

[Angelfire]

I Say this Respectfully.

What most of you lose sight of is the fact that although we are RP'ing characters whilst we play, we are in fact 'playing'.

Most who sit behind their screens ambitiously smacking their keyboard to splash their sentiments on the small screen in front of them do not have the perspective nor the world view to make massive unilateral governmental decisions. And even if you were a diplomatic genius in parliamentary tactics and corporate strategies, your sentiments would simply fly over the heads of the noobs like me who just want fly around and kill stuff.

My point there is that debating at a government level is fun, but not very effective in resolution as we are not politicians, we are gamers.

As Gamers... thats how we should look at this whole debate.

As RP Gamers more specifically.

Perspective is everything! Your perception is determined by your perspective. Your perception defines your version of reality.

Approaching a debate like this with so many different perspectives is like 3 people wearing different colored lenses over their eyes, arguing about what color the wall actually is. All are right, but none are right... As gamers we need to done the lenses of 'maximum fun and stimulation'.

Chaos is the enemy of fun.

Why do I say this?

Well, it breeds conflict over small things because chaos is the default setting when there is no authority or accountability.

I have already stated that you can report untoward behavior to the Admins if the factions/faction leaders overstep their authority (as gamers) within the rules of Discovery. I seriously like most of the indies who are making their points here, but if you win this argument, all this mod will be is one big argument. We need clear leaders, rules and laws... to break these boundaries of security would be community suicide!

An official faction, which has gone through the processes required by the admins and community to be deemed official is not in fact 'self proclaimed'. They are the result of a very democratic process that takes place right here on these forums. Try posting a faction request if you really want to experience the harsh democracy of this community!

Once the request has been flamed and toasted by the community, rewritten once or twice, flamed and char grilled some more and finally Admin approved, it has certainly earned it's stripes to be an authoritative entity within this community.

If an Indy is willing to follow that same path to change policy then fair is fair, but I must say that many of you are not thinking past your own gratification as a gamer. You are fighting for something that will benefit you and one or two others but in truth you are planting seeds of discontent and disorder which will turn something beautiful to play into a pure pvp server.

Work with the system, earn it's stripes, use it as a friend and no egotistical faction leader will stand before you for you will have something far more powerful than a single gamer or an entire clan on your side... you will have the community (of gamers) backing your play.

@ Nooblet. - Your reactionary stance has tied my hands in coming to your defense or support. Not that my support means much but it is an example of using the system as opposed to fighting your fight alone.

I know I am always soap boxy when I speak, please forgive me for this, I am an incurable optimist!

---

The Chronicles of Angelfire

[song]

I Say this Respectfully.

What most of you lose sight of is the fact that although we are RP'ing characters whilst we play, we are in fact 'playing'.

Most who sit behind their screens ambitiously smacking their keyboard to splash their sentiments on the small screen in front of them do not have the perspective nor the world view to make massive unilateral governmental decisions. And even if you were a diplomatic genius in parliamentary tactics and corporate strategies, your sentiments would simply fly over the heads of the noobs like me who just want fly around and kill stuff.

My point there is that debating at a government level is fun, but not very effective in resolution as we are not politicians, we are gamers.

As Gamers... thats how we should look at this whole debate.

As RP Gamers more specifically.

Perspective is everything! Your perception is determined by your perspective. Your perception defines your version of reality.

Approaching a debate like this with so many different perspectives is like 3 people wearing different colored lenses over their eyes, arguing about what color the wall actually is. All are right, but none are right... As gamers we need to done the lenses of 'maximum fun and stimulation'.

Chaos is the enemy of fun.

Why do I say this?

Well, it breeds conflict over small things because chaos is the default setting when there is no authority or accountability.

I have already stated that you can report untoward behavior to the Admins if the factions/faction leaders overstep their authority (as gamers) within the rules of Discovery. I seriously like most of the indies who are making their points here, but if you win this argument, all this mod will be is one big argument. We need clear leaders, rules and laws... to break these boundaries of security would be community suicide!

An official faction, which has gone through the processes required by the admins and community to be deemed official is not in fact 'self proclaimed'. They are the result of a very democratic process that takes place right here on these forums. Try posting a faction request if you really want to experience the harsh democracy of this community!

Once the request has been flamed and toasted by the community, rewritten once or twice, flamed and char grilled some more and finally Admin approved, it has certainly earned it's stripes to be an authoritative entity within this community.

If an Indy is willing to follow that same path to change policy then fair is fair, but I must say that many of you are not thinking past your own gratification as a gamer. You are fighting for something that will benefit you and one or two others but in truth you are planting seeds of discontent and disorder which will turn something beautiful to play into a pure pvp server.

Work with the system, earn it's stripes, use it as a friend and no egotistical faction leader will stand before you for you will have something far more powerful than a single gamer or an entire clan on your side... you will have the community (of gamers) backing your play.

@ Nooblet. - Your reactionary stance has tied my hands in coming to your defense or support. Not that my support means much but it is an example of using the system as opposed to fighting your fight alone.

I know I am always soap boxy when I speak, please forgive me for this, I am an incurable optimist!

Ok--this is a genuinely disingenuous post.

Why not just say, "You people who don't like factions are poor rpers and just don't get it and all tou are gonna do is screw it up for the rest of us who have it just the want we want it."

Would saved a lot of time.

Nothing is going to fix everything. But if there is a fair balance, the majority will be fine.

And getting your own faction approved doesn't equal, "now make server policy for the others".

---

<span style="font-family:System">Hogosha Exile</span>
The Journal of Benjo Dokosai

visit

[Angelfire]

Ok--this is a genuinely disingenuous post.

Why not just say, "You people who don't like factions are poor rpers and just don't get it and all tou are gonna do is screw it up for the rest of us who have it just the want we want it."

Would saved a lot of time.

Nothing is going to fix everything. But if there is a fair balance, the majority will be fine.

And getting yolour own faction approved doesn't equal, "now make server policy for the others".

I don't say that because it is not my intention at all.

My apologies for the offense.

I think your statements and conclusion here are extremely unfair.

Respectfully.

---

The Chronicles of Angelfire

[agnusdei]

Dialectique eristique.
ou l'art d'avoir toujours raison."

---

Faction status
Recruitment thread
Diplomatic channel

[ScornStar]

I Say this Respectfully.

What most of you lose sight of is the fact that although we are RP'ing characters whilst we play, we are in fact 'playing'.

Most who sit behind their screens ambitiously smacking their keyboard to splash their sentiments on the small screen in front of them do not have the perspective nor the world view to make massive unilateral governmental decisions. And even if you were a diplomatic genius in parliamentary tactics and corporate strategies, your sentiments would simply fly over the heads of the noobs like me who just want fly around and kill stuff.

My point there is that debating at a government level is fun, but not very effective in resolution as we are not politicians, we are gamers.

As Gamers... thats how we should look at this whole debate.

As RP Gamers more specifically.



Perspective is everything! Your perception is determined by your perspective. Your perception defines your version of reality.

Approaching a debate like this with so many different perspectives is like 3 people wearing different colored lenses over their eyes, arguing about what color the wall actually is. All are right, but none are right... As gamers we need to done the lenses of 'maximum fun and stimulation'.

Chaos is the enemy of fun.

Why do I say this?

Well, it breeds conflict over small things because chaos is the default setting when there is no authority or accountability.

I have already stated that you can report untoward behavior to the Admins if the factions/faction leaders overstep their authority (as gamers) within the rules of Discovery. I seriously like most of the indies who are making their points here, but if you win this argument, all this mod will be is one big argument. We need clear leaders, rules and laws... to break these boundaries of security would be community suicide!

An official faction, which has gone through the processes required by the admins and community to be deemed official is not in fact 'self proclaimed'. They are the result of a very democratic process that takes place right here on these forums. Try posting a faction request if you really want to experience the harsh democracy of this community!

Once the request has been flamed and toasted by the community, rewritten once or twice, flamed and char grilled some more and finally Admin approved, it has certainly earned it's stripes to be an authoritative entity within this community.

If an Indy is willing to follow that same path to change policy then fair is fair, but I must say that many of you are not thinking past your own gratification as a gamer. You are fighting for something that will benefit you and one or two others but in truth you are planting seeds of discontent and disorder which will turn something beautiful to play into a pure pvp server.

Work with the system, earn it's stripes, use it as a friend and no egotistical faction leader will stand before you for you will have something far more powerful than a single gamer or an entire clan on your side... you will have the community (of gamers) backing your play.

@ Nooblet. - Your reactionary stance has tied my hands in coming to your defense or support. Not that my support means much but it is an example of using the system as opposed to fighting your fight alone.

I know I am always soap boxy when I speak, please forgive me for this, I am an incurable optimist!

We must also realize that some times we may want to discover and make choices on our own. Exspecially the new players. When you have the other people looking at it from the most fun perspective, we must also realize that they are only able to see fun as they understand it. In fact one persons fun maybe totally different than anothers here and both still enjoy RP. But inevitably when you role play authority and hand out edicts like "you cant use this and you can't use that or have this or fly that". AND as I understand it, since you suggest that the faction heads gain certain powers as "experienced players" to gover server rules.

No way, If that were in effect already the Harvesters would never have gotten past 04 and I would have been sanctioned off the server long ago. Restrictions equal deminished potential, deminshed potential equals less veriety, less veriety equals less to discover, less to discover equals less fun for the newer folk.

If we are more organized we should be able to counter the most impertainate Whore of any kind until a sanction hits them or have enough characters to occupy ourselves elsewhere.

We DO NOT NEED server police. If we have server police we should make sure that equal numbers faction members and indies(No faction).

---

Eat Babies!!!!!!!!!!

Join our cause for a baby free world.

Harvester diplomacy

[Oniros]

I have issue with chain of command. I never join a military faction or such. I build my own faction, sharing the leadership because i hate to lead or give order.
I never feel opressed by factions laws (stop mixing server rules and faction laws), i never feel the pressure of an official faction as players.
There is ONLY players against players here. I'm getting sick to see so many useless debates, arguments. Good will start by a good attitude, and a good attitude start by looking at himself.

I look at myself : I'm a pretentious guy, who declare to know exactly what role-playing mean. I have read a lot of thread, and only few players, according to my godlike opinion have the generalist view of a true RPGamer : Del, Hyung, Jinx, Gronath, Laowai, Scornstar

Why do i name them ? Because they represent all the currents : Indies, faction members, leaders. Because role playing is immersion into a consistent world by characterization and i KNOW that i have the same definition of what is acting, playing in characters, and i know that they are clear enough in their mind to not be overwhelm by the "virtual power and influence".

Now read carefully, i pretend to say i know what role-playing means and i will say a crazy thing for most of you :

ooRP does not exist, only ooC exists; rules of ooRP by definition are stupids because either you are role-playing, either you are out of character, period. So we should sanction an ooC action that ruined the game of another players on the RP server.


Back to Angelfire first post :
Communication is the key on the forum.
Permanency, stability are the key in game.
Only Admins can maintain theses conditions. They have to be more numerous.

PS : I have the ultimate solution : /ignore in game and in forum thus everyone do not suffer the negativity of someone else. :P
I am pretentious and i will suffer to be ignored while I'm witting such a powerful answer about the issue. but i'm realist too, and i'm peeing in a small bottle, and i don't care coz tonight i'll have my 2 hours or more of space flight and no one will spoil my fun.

---

&quot;Perfection, honesty, devotion&quot;
&quot;Immortality is our subconscious main concern&quot;
&quot;To change the system, you have to be inside the system and play by the rules&quot;

[Laowai]

An official faction, which has gone through the processes required by the admins and community to be deemed official is not in fact 'self proclaimed'. They are the result of a very democratic process that takes place right here on these forums. Try posting a faction request if you really want to experience the harsh democracy of this community!

Once the request has been flamed and toasted by the community, rewritten once or twice, flamed and char grilled some more and finally Admin approved, it has certainly earned it's stripes to be an authoritative entity within this community.

If an Indy is willing to follow that same path to change policy then fair is fair, but I must say that many of you are not thinking past your own gratification as a gamer. You are fighting for something that will benefit you and one or two others but in truth you are planting seeds of discontent and disorder which will turn something beautiful to play into a pure pvp server.

Work with the system, earn it's stripes, use it as a friend and no egotistical faction leader will stand before you for you will have something far more powerful than a single gamer or an entire clan on your side... you will have the community (of gamers) backing your play.

I also have to take exception with this part of your post in particular Angelfire ( as i near hour 7 of my sydney airport exile - oh word of warning to anyone else, you might notice that Starbucks the world over have free wireless.. except in sydney airport - gotta love australia (sarcasm) - where you must sign up to one of the big telecommunication companies and pay for it - but i digress)


Factions earn the right to be recognised as official when they complete the process, that allows them special status and also makes them more accountable for their RP standards, they are also able to buy guard systems (the only place the server rules say btw that they CAN make rules for other players). Nowhere however does it state in the rules that being a faction allows its leaders/members to dictate gameplay of other non-faction members. This is a failing of the rules in general.
There are factions on this server that have unique and admin guided and mod guided roles, keepers, phantoms, SCRA etc etc. That these factions can control their members, their choices even ship choices is rarely disputed because it is clearly and unambiguously covered in the rules - they have factions specific ID's that only selected players can get, thus no one argues with it.

It is my view, that if clans controlling the NPC factions are claiming they have this same power then to be honest, the ID's for those factions should also be similarly restricted, so you shouldnt be allowed to have the ID without faction RM. LSF etc approval etc. This however is not the case - these factions ID's are available to anyone, either because Igiss wanted this to be an inclusive server for all (factions and indies with rights for each) or because he knew the mod would be used elsewhere without Disco's factions - no one other than Igiss can say.
But in the current rules system, factions such as the RM claiming they have this right is i believe way overstepping their rights as players on the server. Factions have earned respect in getting approved, there is no denying that fact, and they also have a great say in influencing server policy by virtue of their official status and numbers - but that does not give them the right to dictate server policy, which is what the RM is doing.

No faction leader will stand in your way? but that is exactly what is happening with the factions "requiring" certain measures of new and indie players before they are "permitted" to play how they choose. In Nooblets defence, while he may be arguing he does have a point - if he doesnt not break rules, nor overly disrupt the enjoyment and experience of faction and/or other players why, as a Role playing independant who obeys server rules should he have to obey a faction in game? This is not an argument for anarchy - rather one of equality of rule (RP and server) abiding individuals to enjoy the game without being told how they have to enjoy it by a faction.

I believe much of this argument is happening because of a lack of strong leadership from independent 3rd parties such as admins. It is not their fault, snowed under and voluntary as their job no doubt is, but if this server is to be inclusive and open to all to genuinely enjoy, independent leadership working with community consensus is needed.

If however, the community is wanting to turn control over to the established factions then that needs to be codified in clear, unmistakeable idiot-proof wording "THE FACTIONS ARE THE LAW" that has never been stated as existing outside of guard systems, short of one isolated post by korrd (one admin) and admins inaction over the RM's policy (which does not constitute approval, merely a lack of a decision)

Ironically, Praetyr mentioned that the idea of "player control" was shot down some time ago by Hoodlum in regaurds to cap-ship approval - which he categorically said would NOT happen, i do remember that post ( his words were i remember something along the lines of "you lot? control who gets what? not likely") However despite this, player control of cap ships is happening anyway

I dont see faction power being written into the rules that way why? because it leaves no room for new factions, and it leaves no room at all for indies.
Both sides need to give ground here, Indies need to realise there is a community here thats established, especially its faction members, who greatly influence (not control) server Rp, its worth getting to know them and what they do. But factions need to realise that despite the stance taken by the RM, who have thusfar got away with it, they are not the law on the server and cannot bar players from RP avenues or NPC factions, they have to be a little more flexible with indies, especially ones who dont wish to join a faction but otherwise observe all the rules of good RP and server conduct.

---

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/3289/...047770.png

[n00bl3t]

I Say this Respectfully.

What most of you lose sight of is the fact that although we are RP'ing characters whilst we play, we are in fact 'playing'.

Most who sit behind their screens ambitiously smacking their keyboard to splash their sentiments on the small screen in front of them do not have the perspective nor the world view to make massive unilateral governmental decisions. And even if you were a diplomatic genius in parliamentary tactics and corporate strategies, your sentiments would simply fly over the heads of the noobs like me who just want fly around and kill stuff.

My point there is that debating at a government level is fun, but not very effective in resolution as we are not politicians, we are gamers.

As Gamers... thats how we should look at this whole debate.

As RP Gamers more specifically.

Perspective is everything! Your perception is determined by your perspective. Your perception defines your version of reality.

Approaching a debate like this with so many different perspectives is like 3 people wearing different colored lenses over their eyes, arguing about what color the wall actually is. All are right, but none are right... As gamers we need to done the lenses of 'maximum fun and stimulation'.

Chaos is the enemy of fun.

Why do I say this?

Well, it breeds conflict over small things because chaos is the default setting when there is no authority or accountability.

I have already stated that you can report untoward behavior to the Admins if the factions/faction leaders overstep their authority (as gamers) within the rules of Discovery. I seriously like most of the indies who are making their points here, but if you win this argument, all this mod will be is one big argument. We need clear leaders, rules and laws... to break these boundaries of security would be community suicide!

An official faction, which has gone through the processes required by the admins and community to be deemed official is not in fact 'self proclaimed'. They are the result of a very democratic process that takes place right here on these forums. Try posting a faction request if you really want to experience the harsh democracy of this community!

Once the request has been flamed and toasted by the community, rewritten once or twice, flamed and char grilled some more and finally Admin approved, it has certainly earned it's stripes to be an authoritative entity within this community.

If an Indy is willing to follow that same path to change policy then fair is fair, but I must say that many of you are not thinking past your own gratification as a gamer. You are fighting for something that will benefit you and one or two others but in truth you are planting seeds of discontent and disorder which will turn something beautiful to play into a pure pvp server.

Work with the system, earn it's stripes, use it as a friend and no egotistical faction leader will stand before you for you will have something far more powerful than a single gamer or an entire clan on your side... you will have the community (of gamers) backing your play.

@ Nooblet. - Your reactionary stance has tied my hands in coming to your defense or support. Not that my support means much but it is an example of using the system as opposed to fighting your fight alone.

I know I am always soap boxy when I speak, please forgive me for this, I am an incurable optimist!

Your support would mean plenty. However if you feel your hands are tied feel free to leave me to 'fight' this alone. (I don't really consider it a fight.) If you would highlight the main aspects of my reactionary stance in a PM I'd be much obliged.

Apart from that, since your post has allegedly been misread by Shigeo, why don't you highlight the main points of what you're trying to say so no-one else gets that impression.

---

Anything I say is not intended as offensive, and to try and deliberately misinterpret it as such would be an attempt at trolling via misrepresentation.

It's not a conspiracy, it's localised bias. They're not intelligent enough to form a conspiracy.