The issue in question is the role of factions in Discovery. More specifically, whether factions, which I will call guilds for simplicity, can exercise authority in the use of ships by players with associated tags.
You think they don't, because you have an idea of id confering full membership to a faction, and a guild just being a group of friends in that faction. Is that right?
Your opponents, me included, think that guilds are something special within a faction and should get authority over indies. This is why creating a faction is a bit rigorous. I think this position is more in-RP. I thought I explained this already with my example of mercenaries working for a nation, but I'll try to tie it into Freelancer a little more.
I enter a system and see three ships. All three have the same id and the right tag, but two have a name that indicates they belong to a faction.
In scenario 1, the non-faction ship has one that is out of out-of canon for their faction, while the other two ships are in canon. Intuitively, this seems odd. I need to make up a more complex in-game story to understand this. This guy must have strange connections, be on the fringe, or something of that sort. If the non-canon ship is superior to what the faction is flying, it becomes worse.
In scenario 2, the non-faction ship is in-canon, while the two faction ships are out-of-canon. I think I can easily make sense of this in-game because I see factions as an elite group. They do have extra-special connections, they might have access to better equipment. It is a much easier story to tell than the former.
I think that good RP involves telling a good story, and the position of guilds within a faction as the elite, as the authority of that faction makes better sense than a military organization having groups of friends who run around acting in their own fashion. I think the backstories provided on this forum support that view.
So, assuming I got your view right on the position of guilds within factions right, why do you think your view of factions tells a better story?
It wasn't really about factions, just lately everything seems to get hijacked into a debate about factions. But, tiepo, you speak sensibly and reasonably. Expect to get misquoted and lambasted for referring to factions as elites. People won't like that. Not democratic enough. Though I'm kind of flattered by it, and I am a lowly drone within the QCO, who lacks imagination and free will.
@Aku
Quote:How, exactly is the list "clarifying RP" by allowing exceptions for factions that will be difficult if not impossible for indies to get?
It might help new players pre-empt problems and avoid repeating the mistakes that many, myself included, have made in the past. PLUS it might generate debate about something more positively than another faction-bashing thread.
It might help, for example, the Rheinland police chap in the ravens claw loaded out with nomad weapons who attacked me without uttering a word to move towards being a RPer of a quality far different to that of the mindless twerp he is now perceived to be by me.
edit... I meant to point out that in my time on the server I have never experienced exceptionally oorp behaviour from factions. Sure they did things to annoy me, but always well within the bounds of what I would expect. In a game. And Im sure those of you who have actually been in game more than the forums would note that the people who genuinely need to be pointed in the right direction vis a vis what is expected in a RP server are hardly the factions.
The issue is really one of unwanted authority over an individuals RP and that individual himself. You feel that someone I possibly don't know, possibly don't like or respect should have authority over me as if I joined their faction when I did not, regardless of my RP. Is that right? And the reason is because this person runs a faction that payed a small price to be the official faction for that ID.
If we look at it realistically, there isn't usually one authority over any large group or nation. King John was the "clan leader" of england, but he still had the Magna Carta forced on him and didn't personally rule every soldier. The same is true of the president, He's commander in chief but he doesn't control every soldier. Nations are bigger than any one man, and ID's are certainly bigger than any one faction as long as there is some respect for the individual here.
In your example, all three ships are in-canon, just as if you see several different armed forces in one area, under different chain of commands, doing different things. Or is you were sailing the spanish main and saw two different pirate ships each on their own. One might be part of a larger group, the other might be a loner, but both are valid pirates.
Having a black and white list of ships for ID's doesn't take away from anyone. The better factions here like the Bretonia ones, use only valid ships and weapons already, no codes, no nomads. They RP seriously, and they aren't hurt by this at all.
The indies will get reigned in a little by this list as well. Not all of them, but a few of them that are pushing the envelope, and everyone is on the same page. Fair across the board for everyone, including the indies that are largely not represented here.
Of course, just like the factions pushed a lot of people into BH BC's, this will push a lot of people into merc ID's, but there is no way around that.
' Wrote:It might help, for example, the Rheinland police chap in the ravens claw loaded out with nomad weapons who attacked me without uttering a word to move towards being a RPer of a quality far different to that of the mindless twerp he is now perceived to be by me.
That's oorp, and pvp whoring. It might help if you reported him. It might even be one of the few reports lately here not motivated by revenge.
Of course, anything I say relating to whether the way people are punished instead of helped by the admins here will be taken the wrong way, so I won't go into that.
You're not really one of the mindless drones either, not the ones who follow up their faction leaders ninja jesus attack with poems full of direct insults that the admins ignore, but tell me, do you really think Unselies "might makes right" post made your faction look better? I'm guessing you are thinking I was wrong to leave the faction over it, but to me the choice seemed clear as day.
' Wrote:edit... I meant to point out that in my time on the server I have never experienced exceptionally oorp behaviour from factions.
I have, for instance when the faction leader of the GMG got a couple bombers and GB's and attacked the Churchill because I rammed his bomber with my battleship (which, as I'm sure everyone can realize is fairly contrived, he streered his bomber in front of my BS to make an excuse).
The reason I was attacked is because I was an indie that he knew he could whore without any repercussions, and report me for a sanction afterwards when he couldn't kill me.
Right, so it does come down to us having different ideas about how to understand factions in the world of discovery.
You see them as being different armed forces, while I see them as an elite within an authority. I also think that elite would have control over the distribution of armnaments of their manufacture... especially within groups that are aligned with them. The black market is another issue and if you want to introduce that, then you might as well be done with ship restrictions altogether.
It intuitively makes more sense for me to treat factions this way. Otherwise you have, say, a squadron within a Corsair group and a bunch of other independent Corsairs. This also doesn't seem to be in line with how factions portray themselves (i.e. as the voice of the group).
If only we had a way to reconcile our world-views. Who knows, it might even have an application outside of Freelancer.
' Wrote:Right, so it does come down to us having different ideas about how to understand factions in the world of discovery.
You see them as being different armed forces, while I see them as an elite within an authority. I also think that elite would have control over the distribution of armnaments of their manufacture... especially within groups that are aligned with them. The black market is another issue and if you want to introduce that, then you might as well be done with ship restrictions altogether.
It intuitively makes more sense for me to treat factions this way. Otherwise you have, say, a squadron within a Corsair group and a bunch of other independent Corsairs. This also doesn't seem to be in line with how factions portray themselves (i.e. as the voice of the group).
If only we had a way to reconcile our world-views. Who knows, it might even have an application outside of Freelancer.
The problem I have with your view is twofold.
First, it doesn't reflect reality. Now, I'm not a big fan of bringing reality to computer games in most areas, but as far as arms procurement in the US armed forces I have some experience with that, having ordered arms.
I can safely say there is no single elite person controlling who gets what. Even if you view the faction as the core of the arms forces, it's the bean counters filling the reqs. No four star general and not the president are controlling whether a particular division in some small base gets what they requested or not. It's simply too complex a process. Likewise if you say the faction leader is president and his faction members are four star generals, they still are not enough people to account for a nations complexity. In fact there is a very real division in leadership in the US Navy between those that graduated the academy and those that came in from another college. There is no reason that kind of division can't be represented by faction/non faction within one ID.
Secondly, tying in with that, is the issue of real life authority over independent players. What you are endorsing is forcing independents to be de facto faction members, and that isn't fair to them. If the admins decide this is a faction only server and you are forced to join, that's one thing, but that hasn't happened, and if I want to RP an outcast for instance I shouldn't have to endorse Eppy and his ninja jesus to do so.
This server is big enough for factions and independents to each play their way.
' Wrote:The issue is really one of unwanted authority over an individuals RP and that individual himself. You feel that someone I possibly don't know, possibly don't like or respect should have authority over me as if I joined their faction when I did not, regardless of my RP. Is that right? And the reason is because this person runs a faction that payed a small price to be the official faction for that ID.
Having a black and white list of ships for ID's doesn't take away from anyone. The better factions here like the Bretonia ones, use only valid ships and weapons already, no codes, no nomads. They RP seriously, and they aren't hurt by this at all.
The indies will get reigned in a little by this list as well. Not all of them, but a few of them that are pushing the envelope, and everyone is on the same page. Fair across the board for everyone, including the indies that are largely not represented here.
Note: I deleted two paragraphs to save a little room.
I'm going to go ahead and declare your position one of utter crap. Doubly so when you take a look at your own signature which is still cheerfully advertising the faction you recently proposed, one which would bring any and all capital vessels that had a care under the Junker ID to, well, do whatever they want.
Mere weeks later you defect to the Blood Dragons with a Bretonian battleship.
Now you're running a new crusade declaring that no one should deviate in any manner from ship to ID whilst ignoring any evidence that contradict your own absurd claims, instead opting to carry on with statements like: "Having a black and white list of ships for ID's doesn't take away from anyone." on the heels of your own failed attempts to actively fly in the face of the very notion that you're now so enthusiastic to push onto this server.
In short: Your attempt to be special backfired, now no one should be.
Reign in the indies, pushing the envelope. Heh. Given your position of being so insulted by the notion of anyone daring question the manner in which you conduct yourself I reckon that you're simply hoping to change the tact of your absurd agendas.
Quote:Secondly, tying in with that, is the issue of real life authority over independent players. What you are endorsing is forcing independents to be de facto faction members, and that isn't fair to them. If the admins decide this is a faction only server and you are forced to join, that's one thing, but that hasn't happened, and if I want to RP an outcast for instance I shouldn't have to endorse Eppy and his ninja jesus to do so.
No, you don't have to endorse me. Cyborg Pirate Ninja Jesus was endorsing you, as a matter of fact, and offering a weapon on the level of the Nomad Sun-Killer, I'd have accepted his application if I were you...All you have to endorse is the fact that if you refuse to comply the powers that be in Outcast space are going to put you into an EVA suit without thrusters and shove you into our Black Hole. Simple enough, I should think. Whether you like it or not, it has happened and will not change unless Igiss suddenly decides to be an anarchist. Sorry, show's over. My piece is done.
EDIT: Pardon my bandwagoneering and lack of originality, but What Dusty Said.
Quote:Quick comment - we thought that Panzer was the Leader, Swift. -Agmen
' Wrote:No, you don't have to endorse me. Cyborg Pirate Ninja Jesus was endorsing you, as a matter of fact, and offering a weapon on the level of the Nomad Sun-Killer, I'd have accepted his application if I were you...All you have to endorse is the fact that if you refuse to comply the powers that be in Outcast space are going to put you into an EVA suit without thrusters and shove you into our Black Hole. Simple enough, I should think. Whether you like it or not, it has happened and will not change unless Igiss suddenly decides to be an anarchist. Sorry, show's over. My piece is done.
EDIT: Pardon my bandwagoneering and lack of originality, but What Dusty Said.
I'm not even going to read your post Eppy.
This is Freelancer, not FACISTFACTIOPVPWHORElancer.
