(05-30-2020, 06:44 PM)starcraft129 Wrote: My standpoint on besieging POBs is that the party in question should have to produce around the same amount of roleplay to attack the POB, as the POB has generated itself. Instead of just flying up to POB being like "Hey gang we don't like this, lets blow it up" in an in-depth manner on the forum.
Another way to do it is if instead of besieging the POB at any time after 24 hours, both sides would have to decided on when to make a battle between defending and attacking forces, if defenders win, obviously the attackers aren't going to be besieging as they're dead, and if the attackers win they can then start besieging the POB.
Edit: Haha english spelling and wording big bad so fixed.
Yeah, but there's a problem with that, how do you measure "amount of RP"? Number of forum posts? Number of players docking to the station that are not the owners of the station? Number of people in POB's faction (if there's one)... It simply can't work.
The only hard variables that we have that can be quantified with any precision are time, credits, number of shipped commodities, ship/base stats. Any balancing needs to rely on those, else you're going to end up in the same situation and drama as now when someone subjectively judges that "the amount of RP was too low" and goes crying all over the forums again (no insult to the OP).
Simply put, building, maintaining and defending a POB is a high effort, high risk, high reward operation. While sieging a POB is a medium effort, low risk, high reward operation. That's where the imbalance lies.
(sieging a POB being medium effort is my subjective opinion, it might even be high effort, but from where I stand a few weeks of credit grinding for the ships and equipment, a few beers with your friends to get organized and a few hours of holding down RMB seem to me as medium effort compared to months or even years of effort put into the existence of an established POB)
I've been on both sides of this problem, defending and sieging, hated both. The weapons platforms do all the work and you can easily avoid getting killed by sitting on top of the base. If you're attacking it, you have to constantly avoid the weapons platforms and enemy bombers using snac/novas gunboat missiles or what not. It takes hours.
I don't enjoy the existence of these damn things, the New London, Manhattan and Pitts defense grids should tell you why.
Gold particular was not a game feature like Sniper claims it was. It made roleplaying a Molly even more pointless as the only thing that attracts people to Dublin, their primary system, has an instadock fallback point that anyone can run to. Their entire purpose is spiting BMM and protecting the gold that they lay claim to after the Graves incident.
Clew Bay was even closer and did the exact same thing. Mollys were already deader than hell because of how much they got kicked around by Durandal for opposing Bretonia.
I don't know the Enclave's reason for sieging the bases, it could've been anything and nobody but the people who committed the act can really know what went through their heads before doing it, nobody here can pretend they know, they can just guess. All we know for sure is they wanted it gone, you didn't put up a good enough fight to stop them from destroying the base. (Keep in mind I Have a hatred for Gallia in general)
So what are you hoping to accomplish with this 16 some pages of toxic argument that's dividing the community further than it already is. If it really is ooRP hatred like some people say it is, then even if Darkwind's abhorrently stupid rules pitch goes through, they'll just swap and log a bunch of lawfuls to siege the bases instead.
(05-30-2020, 07:16 PM)LuckyOne Wrote: (sieging a POB being medium effort is my subjective opinion, it might even be high effort, but from where I stand a few weeks of credit grinding for the ships and equipment, a few beers with your friends to get organized and a few hours of holding down RMB seem to me as medium effort compared to months or even years of effort put into the existence of an established POB)
It is also easier to knock down a sand castle than it is to build one. It is easier to let a building rot and crumble than it is to maintain it. It is easier to let a country fall than it is to defend it.
Entropy always wins. Stars burn out. Railways rust. Ships run out of fuel. Nobody complains about this concept when the cause is the mere ravage of time, but the minute players accelerate it, it becomes a problem.
Building a base is a risk. It attracts attention, requires resources, and the owners are never guaranteed to profit from it. Eventually, the ocean will come to crush your sand castle, but sometimes, it gets stepped on. This is part of the risk you accept when you build a base. If you aren't watching your sand castle, maintaining it and digging trenches to divert the incoming tide the ocean will swallow it. If you do nothing to repel the joggers, children playing, and stray dogs, it will get stepped on.
There is no creation without risk of destruction. And yet, people continue to create.
A way a lone a last a loved a long the riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend of bay,
brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.
(05-30-2020, 07:38 PM)Grumblesaur Wrote: It is also easier to knock down a sand castle than it is to build one. It is easier to let a building rot and crumble than it is to maintain it. It is easier to let a country fall than it is to defend it.
Entropy always wins. Stars burn out. Railways rust. Ships run out of fuel. Nobody complains about this concept when the cause is the mere ravage of time, but the minute players accelerate it, it becomes a problem.
Building a base is a risk. It attracts attention, requires resources, and the owners are never guaranteed to profit from it. Eventually, the ocean will come to crush your sand castle, but sometimes, it gets stepped on. This is part of the risk you accept when you build a base. If you aren't watching your sand castle, maintaining it and digging trenches to divert the incoming tide the ocean will swallow it. If you do nothing to repel the joggers, children playing, and stray dogs, it will get stepped on.
There is no creation without risk of destruction. And yet, people continue to create.
Yes it's true that us puny humans have very little control over the universe. We can't stop the sun from shining, or the Earth from spinning, or change the laws of physics. But you are forgetting that Discovery is still a virtual universe. It's completely under our control. We could make countermeasure launchers pop out fully crewed Core 6 POBs filled with Gold Ore if we wanted...
I get it, life is hard. Yes, Discovery is supposed to emulate life. But it's also supposed to be an escape from life! A place where you can role play being somebody even if you are a nobody in your real life, provided you put in some effort and get other people to accept it.
All I'm saying is there should be a balance. The forces of creation and the forces of destruction need to require similar effort. It's the only way to ensure people stay on the same page and nobody gets disproportionately hurt or bullied. It's the only way to not turn Discovery into a toxic wasteland that lots of other games with high stakes become. The stakes need to be roughly equal, for both sides.
The balance can be achieved by the numbers, or it can be achieved by the teacher that you put in the sandbox to look after the kids so they don't get into a fist fight. The first option is a solution by pure mathematics and logic, the second is a solution by the same (but often flawed) social contract we use to run our real world.
(05-30-2020, 08:03 PM)LuckyOne Wrote: All I'm saying is there should be a balance. The forces of creation and the forces of destruction need to require similar effort. It's the only way to ensure people stay on the same page and nobody gets disproportionately hurt or bullied.
This isn't bullying.
Destroying assets associated with Bretonia is within the purview of Enclave roleplay. Base siege is a kind of PVP, and PVP is a mode of roleplay. The only disproportionate factor in this entire affair was how few forces were dispatched to defend Goldgeist.
If base siege is "bullying" to you, you may want to reexamine your stake in this game.
A way a lone a last a loved a long the riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend of bay,
brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.
(05-30-2020, 08:15 PM)Grumblesaur Wrote: If base siege is "bullying" to you, you may want to reexamine your stake in this game.
It's very similar to bullying when one side can lose everything they worked for, and the other can field 10 battleships and stands to lose.... nothing, really ?
(05-30-2020, 07:35 PM)Hemlocke Wrote: I don't enjoy the existence of these damn things, the New London, Manhattan and Pitts defense grids should tell you why.
New London defense grid?
It was decided many years ago, that Bretonia would not allow any POBs in the Planet Orbit, to have any Weapon Platforms. There has never been any.
'I would like to be half as clever as some people like to believe they are' Life is full of disappointments, it is how we handle them that helps to define us, as a person
(05-30-2020, 08:15 PM)Grumblesaur Wrote: If base siege is "bullying" to you, you may want to reexamine your stake in this game.
It's very similar to bullying when one side can lose everything they worked for, and the other can field 10 battleships and stands to lose.... nothing, really ?
And what did that one side work for? What did they gain while the base was alive?
A way a lone a last a loved a long the riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend of bay,
brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.
(05-30-2020, 07:35 PM)Hemlocke Wrote: Gold particular was not a game feature like Sniper claims it was. It made roleplaying a Molly even more pointless as the only thing that attracts people to Dublin, their primary system, has an instadock fallback point that anyone can run to. Their entire purpose is spiting BMM and protecting the gold that they lay claim to after the Graves incident.
Clew Bay was even closer and did the exact same thing. Mollys were already deader than hell because of how much they got kicked around by Durandal for opposing Bretonia.
So what are you hoping to accomplish with this 16 some pages of toxic argument that's dividing the community further than it already is. If it really is ooRP hatred like some people say it is, then even if Darkwind's abhorrently stupid rules pitch goes through, they'll just swap and log a bunch of lawfuls to siege the bases instead.
You make some good points Hemlocke, worthy to discuss.
I agree that the Molly's and other factions that cannot have anything bigger than a destroyer are seriously disadvantaged. And the are ignored, relegated to greater insignificance by development changes etc. However, I have successfully mined with Molly ID'd ships. I have one ready to launch right now... into the dead of space... 100+km from Arranmore base as it was docked on Goldgeist. I had great RP and yes, I got shot a lot too. However, why mine when you can pillage? Made a small fortune raiding the gold field as the ore sat ready to collect. Granted it is still a challenge playing Molly faction.
This thread has hit a nerve with the community. To clock up 23 pages of discussion, most of which is contrary arguments etc with some negative toxicity shows the depth of feeling.
St Denis' post hits the nail on the head. For the full read, it is on Page 16.
"Those Players that lose a POB, that they have vested months/years of time in, don't get it back. They lose all that time and effort and anything that was stored on that Base. So, maybe you can, possibly, understand how angry they feel."
(05-30-2020, 05:05 PM)Alestone Wrote: (I will admit, I skipped 18 pages)
My biggest problem with this is that the entire action was started with a one post MeLance that amounted to, "We blow shizzle up for... Reasons!"
It (barely) met the Letter of Server Rules, but certainly not the Spirit. It isn't even RP between players of the faction, just an All Hands notice. Calling it RP is really doing it a courtesy I don't believe it deserves, and it underlines a pattern of conduct that the server community shouldn't be pursuing.
In effect, this entire event was the equivalent of yelling "Fire" and immediately attacking, which, in ship engagements, is a violation of the rules.
Well said, Alestone, well said.
If I read it correctly there was no chance for the owners of Goldgeist, or Clew Bay and probably Eldorado to RP an SOS call, as there was no RP contact from Enclave. Without any pre-existing RP on forums any SOS call would need to say that the enclave will be attacking and that is metagaming.
