Authority of Independents

[Zelot]

Oh jeez, give me a freekin break.


Any single player is a single player, faction or not, and factions are a minority on the server but are too greedy to share.

The real issue is the factions that only fight five to one, that have no respect for other players, that think they are better than everyone else.

The factions are destroying this server, if they had their way it would be faction only.

*Geez I can't believe I am doing this*



I completely disagree, and I am starting to take offense at this whole faction vs indy thing. Just like you cant group all indy's and say, that there is one way that they act or feel, you can't do it with factions or faction members either. I am so tired of faction indy, faction indy, faction indy, faction indy, faction indy, faction indy. I think the root of this problem is that too many people group everyone in the server into faction players or indy players, I have both, but I have been clearly told that even if I have 1 faction character and 10 indy's, I am still in the faction group. This is so freaking stupid. How many threads in the last few months have had "Faction/Indy" in the title. Do you realize how much time this is taking away from us playing the damn game and RP'ing here on the forums. We are all just players, yes groups are going to be able to exert more power than individuals, that is the nature of group dynamics and an unalterable fact, no matter how many damn threads we have on the forums about it. So how bout we just start to listen to each other instead of looking at whether the person saying it is part of the so called "Faction" camp or the "Indy" camp.



At Akum

You sir are really starting to be a problem. Ever since you got your sanction you have done nothing but try and make every thread into a platform for your personal agenda. Please, you are really starting to interfere with other peoples enjoyment of the game. I am not saying you should leave, I am saying it would be my suggestion that you take a good long look at the way you present yourself here, and decide if this is really the way you want people to see you, as a cantankerous muckraker, with nothing to do but whine.



Sir dont speak for me,I am a faction leader and You say if "Factions" had their way the server would be faction only. That is not how I feel, I Have had some of my best rp both in my indys, and in my faction ships with indy's. Sir, please dont try to make people think something that just isnt true.

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[kingvaillant]

*removed*

As said "Can't we just, ffs, get along?"

And just to mention, my post was made before the edit of the main post. (I mean on first page) but Titan points it out pretty well.

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Director of the Liberty Security Force: Fidelity, Bravery and Integrity

The Amundsen Zone-21 Restrictions

[jimmy Patterson]

Did not bother to read entire thread as it's probably mostly flames, so I'll just answer you directly, I voted yes, because I think that they should have the same authority when it comes to enforcing laws, I also believe that an indie that has RPed for a while, and has been also recognized by the faction can earn himself quite a high rank. Anyone can come around and claim, hey I'm a general bla bla, but unless they manage to RP it properly, they'll probably be ignored or expelled by the main faction in the area. Its all based on the respect we can give to each other, faction to indie and indie to faction. Yes there are some...biased opinions in factions towards the indies when they first appear with their big ship or whatnot usually, but, if the person can RP it effectively, mainly referring to Xing or Gafwmn here, then the person can be recognized as an authority figured even within that faction. There are indies that can order LN about, but the main point here is that, indies have to prove themselves to factions, while its not necessary for the factions to prove themselves to indies. I'm not saying I support this, I'm just saying it is like that. And if both parties accept that and respect each other, it can all turn out well. Unfortunately you get factions whining that indies are cap whores, and you get indies whining that factions are absolute ruler whores or whatnot. And with that you lose the respect, you become more biased, and all hell breaks loose. Anyway, hope you got my point, if you have any questions, i'll be willing to clarify:P

agreed allthough im more of a i suck in fighters and if ive had a battlecruiser for months it should be worked into the LN IF AND ONLY IF![b]!! i or whoever meets the factions standards for conduct and such because its like haveing say admrial nimitz move to the atlantic theater and busting him back to ensign

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kudos tommeh for sig

[sovereign]

If you can actually RP an admiral/general/etc, make sure the rest of the admiralty knows that you are, in fact, an admiral if anyone asks, coordinate with the rest of the admiralty on stuff that admiralties coordinate on, etc ad infinitum, then you are an admiral. Anyone under your rank who disobeys gets a court martial, if their infraction is big enough to endanger a mission then they get shot.




This is COMPLETELY unrelated to whether or not this player puts a few letters and symbols in front of their name. In most cases, it just happens that the existing admiralty equivalent is done by factions because no one else put the effort into it. Xing put effort into it, he had a general for awhile with no complaints. (Now has a Taisho, IIRC). No funny faction tag. Does it make his character less of a figure? No, it makes her less recognizable by those who don't spend time on the forums. Nothing more.



I'm really sick of this faction vs. indy bulldung. You reap what you sow. Factions, by nature, sow a lot. So they reap a lot. Individuals can do just as much, it just takes a dedication that usually isn't there. Usually. Xing, Dreygon, and Jinx all have characters that are very well known, very powerful, and very obviously not in factions. Actually, you can probably name those characters more easily than you can name the admiralty board of the Liberty Navy. More people probably know Mon'Star than Chancellor Reinhardt- because Dreygon put more into getting Mon'Star's name around than Virus put into getting Reinhardt's name around.

It's that simple.




With that taken care of, please find an equestrienne that isn't unrecognizable from the various insects and bacteria eating its mangled corpse rather that continuing on this one. Thank you, don't come again.





EDIT: To answer your question simply, the answer is that you shouldn't have to ask. If a Liberty Navy officer says "stop" then you stop. If they say "stop lol" then you ignore them. Whether they bear an [LN] in front of them is irrelevant. Whether they have some idea of what they're talking about is. The thing that gets people is that you can't be in most factions (not for long, anyway) without having some idea of what you're talking about. But assuming that idiots and geniuses are equally distributed across people bearing tags and people not bearing tags, then "yes" you have authority based on your rank... anything else is fairly silly.

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[Baltar]

@ Zelot: This poll is not a faction vs indie poll. This is about factions and indies working together. Its about whether those OUTSIDERS ... those not part of the faction or the indies supporting the faction ... should react to them. For instance ... should trader or smuggler look at the indie Liberty Navy ID'd character the same way they view the [LN]? Should the indie receive the same respect and respond to the indie the same as they should to the faction member? THAT is what this poll is about. Now ... as for Akumabito ... just add him to your ignore list. Its much more peaceful since I started ignoring him.

@ kingvaillant: This poll is not about faction vs indie. Please read my response to Zelot and then rethink your response.



@ Everyone: I appreciate all the responses so far ... but some of you are going on tangents. Consider faction and indies working together in harmony. Don't make this faction vs indie because you'll just take it down the wrong trail. Using Liberty as an example here ... think about this as some trader entering New York. The trader encounters an indie Liberty Navy vessel. This vessel orders the trader to standby for a scan. How should the trader respond? The trader says, "you are not [LN] and I don't have to pay attention to you or do as you say." Now ... we all know that you can expect indies in Liberty space to be treated as if they were [LN], right? Ok ... do you think this would be expected throughout Sirius ... say to Order? Corsairs? Outcasts? Junkers? Bretonians? Kusaris? Blood Dragons? Golden C's? etc?

[Zelot]

@ Zelot: This poll is not a faction vs indie poll. This is about factions and indies working together. Its about whether those OUTSIDERS ... those not part of the faction or the indies supporting the faction ... should react to them. For instance ... should trader or smuggler look at the indie Liberty Navy ID'd character the same way they view the [LN]? Should the indie receive the same respect and respond to the indie the same as they should to the faction member? THAT is what this poll is about. Now ... as for Akumabito ... just add him to your ignore list. Its much more peaceful since I started ignoring him.

I absolutely do think Indy's and factional players should be looked at the same by others. If I see a Indy LN, I treat him the same as on of the [LN] faction. I would hate to see a smuggler saying to a indy LN, "I dont have to stop for you because you arent [LN]." That is a ridiculous thought. Player factions have a big say in the diplomacy and policy of the NPC faction, but in most cases (exceptions being non-traditional factions, such as the Harvesters,) but [LN] front line officers (the kind you generally meet in game) should be treated the same as a similarly ranked indy.

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[Baltar]

@ Zelot: Fair nuf ... so I suppose you'd be a YES vote?

[Zelot]

@ Zelot: Fair nuf ... so I suppose you'd be a YES vote?

It's not really as simple as that. I also think factions have a roll to play in protecting their factions RP. I like to think of my Corsairs as a good example. You can't just up and start rp'ing an Elder, the council wont allow that, but we have and indy Elder, and in fact offered an Elder position to two other indy's, who declined because they didnt feel they had enough time. The indy's we invited to be Elder were characters that had already been well rp'ed out, and they had shown the experience necessary to be an Elder. Yes the faction's decided who to invite, we evaluated the indy's rp and decided, and I believe those kinds of decisions are the prerogative of the factions (although now we have an indy in the council so it's not just the faction representatives), though I think it is just as important for factions to make room for indy's to rp a progression of their character, and a rising through the ranks. I guess in simple terms I would say that if the indy is rp'ed properly, they should be afforded the same rights as a faction member of the same rank.

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[Angelfire]

I have no currently factionalized characters, and I voted no.

I think that indies can EARN the right to have SIMILAR authority to faction leaders, but really... you're independent either because:
a) your RP/behavior wasnt good enough for the faction
or
b) you didnt want to spend 3-4 months in a fighter just to be able to fly something you like better

Admittedly, i'm the B type - I originally set up aki as an independent sub-commander of a zoner destroyer working with an order id/tag/weapons. I didnt want to spend 2 months in a fighter to even be considered for a promotion to be able to use the ship, because frankly I suck in fighters. I tried to apply to black squadron several months later and was told I'd have to go back to a fighter for another two months, and give up all the RP I had done prior to that, as well as my ship.

However, I've put effort into my RP as well as into the order in general. I've helped countless players get their rep so they could join the order - even Bs members. I've defended order space against dozens upon dozens of hostile incursions. I've stopped more smugglers from moving cardamine through order space than most other order players combined. I've put in the effort, and I've gotten the reward out of it - respect and recognition by both independents and Black squadron players. I've earned myself a rank and level of authority granted by black squadron's leaders because of the work I've put in, and the work I continue to put in.

If an independent wants 'equal rights', they need to put in at least as much effort as I have. I try to set an example for independents in -all- factions, yet few listen - and they end up crying on the forums because a faction doesnt like how they're playing and either kills them or denies them access to a particular ship, area, peice of equipment, etc.

You only get out as much as you put in.

WOW!

Every now and then someone on these forms says something worthy of actually reading!

'My favourite facts are the ones that don't go looking for a fight' - Ghandi.

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The Chronicles of Angelfire

[worldstrider]

To give it some structure...

There are admin controlled factions which are fine. Don't see much reason to deal with them. Already directly controlled and moderated by admins. they are realy "special role play groups".

You have criminal groups who are: have no formal "fleets"and are not directly engaged or allied with other factions at formal war. Examples in real life:[/b]

• Afghanistan, Africa and Somalia...warlords or clans.
  
• The IRA, Weathermen, Al Qaeda...cells.
  
• Yakuza, Mafia...families or "business" companies.
  
• Bloods, Crips, Hell's Angels...gangs.
  
• Unibomber, Timothy McVey...lone terrorists
  
• Blackbeard, Chinese, Malaysian, Somali and Indonesian ship hijackers...pirates.
  
• Shining Path, Tamil Tigers...resistance groups.
  

None of these groups have a structure that requires a "centrally commanded military"--though many--like the pirates or Hell's Angels or Somali Warlords--wouldn't be adverse to having one and do sometimes operate their own. These would be the equivalent of self-invented player factions. Groups that could fit in these models (with some discussion) could be Xenos, Junkers, Hogosha, Pirates, Mercenaries, Smugglers, Freelancers, LWB, Unioners, Gaians, Liberty Rogues, etc, etc.

Even organized groups at war like the Red Hessians, Blood Dragons, Corsairs and Outcasts could have a "warlord" or "cell" structure that was voluntary and collaborative (think of the "Brethren Court" in Pirates of the Caribbean.) The Order and Zoners could also fit here.

Groups such as the Corsair Dons or Council of Elders or Zoner's Council represent a more house-like authority. The Junker Congress is a hybrid of such types of groups but claims no more than voluntary and independent authority.

So for groups as the Zoners, Hessians, Outcasts, Dragons, Corsairs, Liberty Rogues, Lane Hackers, Order, etc. a decision does have to be made as to "which way they will go". Traditionally by faction play, they have chosen to call the "biggest" (or loudest") faction "the" faction. Not necessarily fair or even in the best interests of all but that is the precedent we have now.

These groups all have one thing in common though--they do not necessarily have to represent a full-blown government per se that claims a sovereign authority that dictates the behavior and actions of multiple, other factions or players.

So groups (in my mind) such as the Zoners, Order, Outcasts, Order and Corsairs--because of the background, nature and scope of their role play--should be decided formally as to whether or not they have a "central ruling authority" (which has been decided by precedent so far if not by actual fact).

House governments are easy--they represent the "laws of the land". They are a universal authority determining the acceptance or rejection of visitors and their actions within their own territories and what affects one affects all. Shoot a cop in Los Angeles and you get arrested in New York too. If Kusari or Bretonian or Liberty military ships are at war--all are.

So to me--the only conclusion is to accept a "central ruling power" for them to be manageable--it really doesn't require a "decision".

Bounty Hunters--as they stand today with the ships they field and their almost completely disregarded role play background--need a central authority. It is a balance necessity.

What I do not agree with is the biggest/baddest/loudest/most official/pushiest/oldest faction gets to automatically be the "de facto" government for all--that tramples a lot of potential role play.

Why don't we split the "role play government" into an official council--separate from individual factions but composed of them--that can make binding rules on all members of that faction represented. They would create the legal codex and all representatives of the police or military or industry therein would be obligated to comply with the laws of the land created. So all Liberty police would recognize the same laws, have the same penalties and ranks but be free to be operated as "precincts" or "fleets' or "wings", etc.

These "oversight government meetings" could set ship restrictions and quotas and limitations by allowing all parties to vote. Such groups could even be confined to official factions only--so long as the possibility of new factions is allowed. If there is only one "Rheinland Military", they would make the rules.

My opinion is NO ONE should be THE Liberty navy, THE Kusari Police, etc. They should be divisions, wings, departments under them. Want to have admirals and the like, the independent council would appoint them by election. It would be fair and fun for all, would allow change and a final non-subjective way to resolve player differences.

Instead we have, "I'm in charge!"..."NO!! I AM in charge!"..."Sanction you!!"...the story that never ends.

Why not change it? Then everyone has a chance. Seems fair to me. I purposely structured our faction so we didn't usurp play of all Junkers. I could have called the faction "Junkers" and claimed ownership because we are the "only" group. I didn't. Now if some else comes along and does are we suddenly a sub-faction to their faction because we wasn't power hungry and ambitious?

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