Discussion of Order Council

[Tenacity]

The first place one witnesses the Order in SP is in NY.

On a spec op mission, in fighters, under the protection of a stealth attack, against a single infected target.

If players want to run a mission like that, they can post the RP for it in advance, and it can be decided on by the council if such a mission is within the boundaries of Order RP and if the risk to our ships is necessary.

The point here is to reduce the amount of order players taking capital ships into new york to cause trouble when there is no reason for it.

I'm not a huge fan of the route this is taking. I think this sort of attitude ('Indies do as I say') is what caused the recent sanctions, no?

That's why the council wolfpack has created includes both black squadron and independent members. We all have different views on how things should be done and who should be in charge - the council is there to vote on issues that arise. The majority vote wins.

Myself and stewcool are both there in defense of independent 'rights', this wont be a mere "you do as we say or you die" situation.

The admins first say you cannot dictate RP to indies, and now they are behind you on forbidding indies to initiate attacks on someone hostile on their infocard?

Order players, black squadron (within their orders) and independent players alike, can attack any liberty navy and LSF players they like. The only restriction here is that such attacks cannot occur in new york - if you take an order ship into alaska, the LN/LSF WILL come to fight you, there is absolutely no reason to add to the OORP and pvpwhoring taking place in new york lately.

Edit: Also, Tenacity is more pro-Bs than most Bs members, so I fail to see a well thought-out council here.

I disagree, i'm pro-ORDER. I've always worked to keep independents of equal weight in order decisions as black squadron members are, and both the indies and Bs leadership will attest to that.

However, this is letting the leader of a faction dictate to indies.

If Indies are ooRP, it's up to admins to sanction them, not up to Bs| to slam them down.

There is absolutely no reason for players to be sanctioned when the situation is fully able to be handled in-RP by the players of the affiliation (factioned or otherwise).

I think it is a serious problem on this server lately that people expect sanctions to be the solution to all of their problems, when 90% of the situations that people are getting sanctioned for could be handled by simply talking to the players and teaching them. I had just that situation today with an order player who was flying a liberty ship and had lead a raid on new york with corsair help - i talked to him in-game, helped him get his rep sorted out, and got him into a new ship; after that he had no problem following standing orders to stay out of new york.

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[Orin]

Linkus summed it up fairly well for your RP sentiments. That's a whole 'nother argument, not to mention one that does not have hard-cut history for you actually quote.

And like I said, if the infocard diplomacy changes in 4.85 to what you claim is how it is, then fine. Until then, Liberty and the Order are set as hostile, and you can't stop people from following that. I don't care what reasoning you have, you simply can't do that.


Edit: It's because there are too many quotes, Tenacity. It does that.

Edit II:

If any order player feels an attack against liberty is necessary, for whatever reason, they post the RP for it and request a decision from the council.

I'm sorry, you can't reserve the right to make people have to write up forum requests for an attack on their enemies.

[n00bl3t]

You say no forum stories will be required, but RP will have to be posted for raids.

Also, over-quoting is the reason why your quotes have failed. (More than ten and it fails.)

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Anything I say is not intended as offensive, and to try and deliberately misinterpret it as such would be an attempt at trolling via misrepresentation.

It's not a conspiracy, it's localised bias. They're not intelligent enough to form a conspiracy.

[Tenacity]

Now don't get me started on required forum stories.

As far as I know, we have no intention of requiring forum 'stories' from order players. Right now, the only requirement is that order players post their character name, ship type, and ship name in the order roster so we can keep a list of players.

Many, many people RP quite well without ever writing anything on the forums which only a handful of people would ever read anyway, and likely come away with information that they wouldn't actually know about in-RP.

Said it before, say it again: Stories are not RP.

You're right, stories arent the only RP. I've 'tested' dozens of order recruits in-game to ensure that they at least have a small concept of RP before helping them get rep and equipment, and it's been no problem with them to this point.

I think the issue here is that non-order players see this as a takeover, when it's almost always worked this way in the background for us. These actions are only being taken to deal with the few players who cause problems for the rest of the faction (affiliation, not player faction) members with their actions.

And there's my point exactly. Say one person thinks the Order should never attack Liberty, another does not. The one (and the one with the power, the faction) is now allowed to force the other into the way they think it should be done? Even when the infocard says Liberty Navy/Security Force/Police Inc: Hostile?

If the infocard diplomacy in 4.85 changes, then we'll talk. Until then, I do not agree with this, and am disturbed that the admins supposedly approve, against their own notices.

If any order player feels an attack against liberty is necessary, for whatever reason, they post the RP for it and request a decision from the council. We vote on it, and we arent voting on our own opinions alone - Personally I will contact all of the order indies that I work with on an almost daily basis (resistance, fletcher, walker, and more) and get their opinions on the matter before I make my vote.

If we do vote that an attack is necessary, it will be planned out in-RP, and we will regulate what ships are used in the process to make things fair both for our side and for the liberty defenders. We're not going to authorize a half dozen osiris raid on manhattan... ever.

Like I said above, we're doing this to improve the view of the order as a whole, and to help our relation with other groups in the game.

Wolf,

There will have to be a separate Order Extremist group. That will solve all the problems. We can work together in some matters and some we won't. Total dominance over any faction is despotism and has no place on this server or in the world in general.

This will not happen. The order, compared to every other faction in this game, is extremely small and tight-knit. There is no room for extremists, and as wolf has said we are an entirely militarily structured organization. Privates that disobey orders from generals get court martialed, simple as that.

Now, if the private has a strong feeling on his position, we'll certainly listen to him when making our decisions, we arent going to ignore everyone's stance and just say "this is how it is" based on our own opinions - but if the majority vote is against that person's stance, we wont accept him causing trouble by ignoring that decision.

What the hell is this BS? I am sorry but i just got santioned for doing exactly what you are now deciding is order law's/rule's. I am now on Big Fatty's side here. This is a total, an utter attempt to control Indi's which the entire staff said is a no no, and i just got santioned for,along with 3 other's. Sorry to say it, but you are just taking a bad situation, and making it a complete disaster. If the admin's support this idea? they are completely reversing what they said in my sanction,and what they said about controling indies. You may as well just turn the mod into (faction controled freelancer) love it or leave it.

Ryoken, thats why two indies were put into the council. Trust me, you're one of the players ill contact when decisions arise - I treat the opinions of other established independents in high regard. It isnt like you're not going to have a say in matters here.

People are saying that the council is pretty much Bs| or BS, depending on how you look at it. (They are also suggesting that the selected independents are just puppets of Bs|.)

Now that's going too far, I'm nobody's puppet and Bs damn well knows it.

You don't seem to get it, Wolf. You say these things are ooRP, but the Order and Liberty are listed as enemies. If you want to call anything ooRP, it is the Bs going down another road.

yes, the order and liberty ARE hostile. That is not an excuse to camp in new york with a fleet of battleships, however.

If any order player ever wants to fight liberty players for some pvp fun, they can do it in alaska. there are no civilians to be harmed by crossfire in alaska, there is no danger to the populace, and there is no chance of people crying "OORP!".

That's the problem I have with people attacking new york directly - there isnt any reason for it. I've had LN/LSF characters, I've worked with both their indies and player factions in the past, and I can say without a doubt that every time they're online, if they see someone in alaska they get on the ball. Why go causing trouble in the most populated system of sirius just for some pvp lulz when the enemy comes straight to you?

Regarding raids on Liberty: I myself, as a member of several lawful factions, wouldn't mind you launching raids in fighters. You know, them Nepthys things that most of you seem to have long since forgotten? You DO have your own fighter line, you realise?

Yes, believe it or not roughly 80% of active order players currently fly fighters or bombers. The only reason the capship 'spam' seems bad is because the fighter/bomber pilots never raid new york, its only the idiots in capships who think they're invincible and can do anything they want without reprisal that act in that manner.

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[Wolfpack98]

Okay, since everyone here seems to want to be a whiney brat...

YOU TELL US HOW TO FIX THE PROBLEM.

If you can't contribute to the SOLUTION, stop contributing to the problem and whine.

Now can we PLEASE all stop posting and let the admins chime in? We're getting to a point where this thread could be locked for the ammount of flame material. Granted I saw this coming, but come on.. This much whineying is good for kindergarten.

And to boot, i see only .. MAYBE.. 2 or 3 involved in the current sutation,and the rest of you are just creating drama....

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User was banned for: Compromised account
Time left: (Permanent)

[Linkus]

Whining is complaining without a cause, perhaps avoid flinging words around so loosely in a topic you apparantly knew was going to be very flammable.

If you can't contribute to the SOLUTION, stop contributing to the problem and whine.

I do believe the 'problem' that most have here is infact with your, and those along with you, actions. Your 'solution' is our 'problem'.

And to boot, i see only .. MAYBE.. 2 or 3 involved in the current sutation,and the rest of you are just creating drama....

Creating drama is a nice phrase for stating your opinion. The day that the community of Discovery starts to only focus on the issues that immediately affect them is a day that I hope will never come. Everyone in this community is affected by the choices of factions and independant players. The only difference is that factions are larger than the independant players and thus have more impact. A slide towards total domination of an NPC faction starts with things such as these.
That aside:


What problem do you want fixed?

People taking battleships into NY and following all the rules of the server and RP'ing somewhat?
Doesn't need fixing. Within the rules, they RP'ed. Anything happens to them because of that and we would simply be damning someone for RP'ing differently.
Which, co-incidently, you are doing.

The council is a silly idea put simply. Establishing a figurehead government with an all-powerful dictator rarely wins you friends, or solves very much.

The Bs| are meant to be an elite WING of the Order, not THE Order. Therefore, do what a wing of the Order would do.
Don't attempt to control the entire Order, just control your own faction.

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Facilitating the rise of robotics since 0 A.D.

[Dusty Lens]

1) Don't concern yourself with the conduct of players who aren't members of your faction. You'll just give yourself an ulcer, unfortunately the Order ID is one very often adopted by persons who would otherwise have a Corsair ID but then realized they couldn't go into NY.

2) Do think of interesting ways to pass the time, sitting out there in the sticks waiting for a keeper to login isn't fun.

3) Enjoy your role of being good guys who're on the wrong side of the law. You can go smack a slave trader around, you can go pummel a pirate. There are a -ton- of things that the Order can do whilst keeping an eye open for potentially infected persons that don't involve lol flying your Corsair cap into NY.

4) Invent a fun dialect.

5) Learn to knit.

[Wolfpack98]

*FACE PALM*

Man I give up with you kids. You obviously can't see past your own nose.

(No, i ain't leaving.. You are not pushing me out again.)

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User was banned for: Compromised account
Time left: (Permanent)

[Orin]

Okay, since everyone here seems to want to be a whiney brat...

You're a funny one. Debating a serious issue is whining?

YOU TELL US HOW TO FIX THE PROBLEM.

Do your thing, let the indies do theirs. If they break rules, they get sanctioned.

We don't need player faction server police.

[bluntpencil2001]

1) Don't concern yourself with the conduct of players who aren't members of your faction. You'll just give yourself an ulcer, unfortunately the Order ID is one very often adopted by persons who would otherwise have a Corsair ID but then realized they couldn't go into NY.

2) Do think of interesting ways to pass the time, sitting out there in the sticks waiting for a keeper to login isn't fun.

3) Enjoy your role of being good guys who're on the wrong side of the law. You can go smack a slave trader around, you can go pummel a pirate. There are a -ton- of things that the Order can do whilst keeping an eye open for potentially infected persons that don't involve lol flying your Corsair cap into NY.

4) Invent a fun dialect.

5) Learn to knit.

Fully agreed.

Try to stage events and do things, instead of telling others that what they are doing is no good. Lead by example.

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