Rant: Lawfuls vs Unlawfuls

[Guest]

Doing "lol"... yes you are doing that. Maybe not in systemchat but I saw it many times before... rogue killed lawful guy and what he did? Surprise... nothing, stayed at same place as before. It is some kind of "lol" because you are showing like big "pwner you are".... being owned in few minutes on same place I call stupidity and in that case deserved end of "lol".

I find this argument unprofessional and unrelated to the topic above.

[Reverend Del]

Hack a full Liberty Pow-wow would be good for us all. I have been trying to educate my indies even to the point of signing them up to the faction. I like having Rogue indies about, it makes sense of the fact we are a loosely organised bunch. In RP I'm trying to get a handle on organising us better.

It's not about not getting noticed either, we expect it, enjoy it even. The decision to run or fight, the banter (if such is forthcoming), what we don't like is watching the character switches when any LR- logs on and knowing full well we can expect about five minutes of peace before it all goes tits up.

The LR rarely, if ever enter NY past the badlands, it's dangerous and largely suicidal. But then it's the capital of Liberty, it should be both of those things. We operate primarily out of Alcatraz, for it's proximity to the Cali trade lanes and the Texas JH. There are currently only three GBs in active service and two of them are mine. There are two active dessies, both on the same account and one is permanently in Cassini, the other is stationed at Alcatraz for defense against the recent spate of BH dock campers in BHBC's. In other words, you won't generally see them in active service in open space..

My Rogues are expected to maintain a standard of RP befitting an official faction, and seeing as I oversee official factions, I'm a bit of a nazi towards my poor LR- boys and girls. They use in RP loadouts, they mostly use Rogue ships, only veterans get to fly an OC one, or they can have OC guns on one ship. Underbosses may have two Outcast ships or can mount OC guns on both their Rogue ships. No Rogue, not even me, is allowed to have OC guns and OC ships. All my Rogues, all 12 of them, (except the dessies, because I have no choice) are either pirate line with sammies, or BW line with sammies.

There are four D-flies in the faction, and I mostly use my Cerb loadout GB if I'm going pirating.

We pirate in the main, and we get caught sometimes (quite often in fact), sometimes we fight, sometimes we run, sometimes we win and sometimes we lose. All good. But we aren't getting the chance to RP much recently, believe us we don't half try to, and on an RP server this is very bad.

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Saint Del is considered a holy healer of diseases of children, but also as a protector of cattle.

[Guest]

Also, as i said before, it is ALL IN RP but people MUST get a sense of where OVERKILL starts.

[Jihadjoe]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the name of our faction is the Liberty Rogues.
By all means bring out the caps to kill those annoying indie gunboats. We don't like most of them either. But spare the fighters from the same fate.

And thats the key..

I have found that what happens is this...

I get my [LN] fighter out and get gunboat-with-dragonsflies-and-quad-solaris spammed. I have been dropped out of a tradelane and crushed by three of them while on my own. Not cool eh?

So the next time I decide to deal with said gunboats with something a little heavier. I fly to the destination and find that all those gunboats have decided to sod off, still in system, but elsewhere, and then I get shouted at by the guys sat around in fighters and bombers for playing unfair...

How should I resolve this? I get the crap-covered end of the stick either way... Either I get blown up without getting a chance to play the game, or I get insulted for trying to deal with the epic zerg-swarm of "enagaging" gunboats which melts away as soon as they see something that could potentialy kill them.

So hell, I guess to avoid the complaints I should just charge into the gunboat horde on my guardian shouting something about the end of the world, get wtfpwnt every time by the dragonflies and just play for five minutes at a time.

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[Dab]

Joe, this is where balance comes in. You have fighters flying about New York. When/If they find enemy capships, you call in one or more of the capships sitting around at bases around NY. They come back you up. That way if you find fighters, everyone has a fun fight. If you find capships, you have your own to call on for support. There shouldn't be purely fighters or purely capships about. There needs to be a mix. Preferably more fighters than caps. The fighters do the patrol and when one finally finds a cap, they call the cap group in. That way the caps work together and you don't need quite so many.

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[Jihadjoe]

When the fight lasts 0.1 seconds this is a little hard.

If the caps are there then the gunboat swarm isn't. Or compliants start rolling in about it.

It's annoying as hell when I'm on my unlawful characters as well. My Xeno for example... You can see how thats an issue, but also my dagger that I keep for a little low level piracy and fun...

If I'm sat pirating in california or magelland, quite frequently I get a gunboat come up and say "U want a better ship" or "I help you"... You can see the trouble with this as well...

I log on and see gunboats in california. I'm the only person from the [LN] online, I log out and get the Durango (lib dread) the gunboats all log off and get their bombers out, then PM me saying "I want fair fight, u have battleship, that not fair". So I think, "ok then" and switch back to my fighter, whereby I either get number-swarmed or gunboat whored again...

No matter what I have done to deal with this I get a lame outcome.

We can't have the numbers to deal with this all the time y'know.

Infact, the other day I logged on my LN character to find three gunboats in cali, so I get the durango and an LN gunboatl logs on, I get a PM saying "we're in bombers, plz play fair" so we get the fighters out, then get a heap of falcatas, a sabre and a scimmy come down on three of us, while a gunboats sits out as a token of decency.

I wasn't impressed.

Dab, I don't think you're aware of the problem here mate.

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[Reverend Del]

Joe this isn't about NY. This about the reaction my faction gets from lawful factions. I control, as best I can, the Rogue indies when I am there to control them, Sindroms does the same. You will never see any LR- tagged player gank you in a gunboat if all you're flying is a fighter. Unless like a fool you fire first.

What the indies do I CANNOT prevent, I wish I could. But this, that is happening to us, is not just coming from indies, it's coming from the [LN] and =LSF= as well, whlst in group with these silent lawful caps. Hell I even tried to engage one of these faction folks in a bit of banter, and what do I get in response? Nothing. He just waited for the BC and cruiser to show up. Not a damn peep, so what can you do?

I don't give a good god damn if you come at us with 3 bombers and two fighters and a GB, against two Barghests a greyhound and a GB. Yeah we're pretty much screwed, but it'll be a damn good fight and we'll feel good about it when we lose. I ensure my Rogues respect YOU and yours. It would be nice if you could ensure the same applies to my LR.

The same goes to the =LSF= as well. Sure come fight us, but f we're not sporting a goddamn cap fleet, why the hell should you be? Dab got it spot on, mix and balance. There's enough Liberty caps about at any given time. You've almost always got back up, if you need it.

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Saint Del is considered a holy healer of diseases of children, but also as a protector of cattle.

[mjolnir]

Going out to the Border Worlds or Independent worlds is not a choice for the Rogues. All Rogue NPCs are in the core Liberty systems.

Oh really?
Montezuma base in Cortez is owned by Rogues and surprisingly has npcs there.
Padua base in Gallileo is owned by Rogues and wait.. they even have a guard systems linked there;)
Fortaleza base in Hudson is owned by Rogues
appart from that there are Rogue NPCs in Bering, Humbolt and for example Shikoku (even GBs)

Further, your claim that all traders must travel through houses to get any profit is completely and utterly ridiculous. 90% of the trade on Disco is done by traveling through Sigmas, Taus, and Omegas.

I said between houses and trough independent/borderworld systems. Which you just confirmed. The principle that "in-house" traderoutes don't yield much money is one of the main concepts both in 4.84 and 4.85.

Liberty has little trade traffic, and what trade there is comes from Bretonia. Those 2 independent worlds are covered by the Lane Hackers, and will soon have both BAF and LN defending it.

Cortez has more LR NPCs there than Hackers and a base on top of that. But yes a threaty signed by Del himself which basically removes this "safe haven" was signed. Hence why it looks strange when Del comes to argue how rogues are getting shot at all the time, when at the same time he makes sure they have fewer places to run to.

I've found more and more LH players in Bretonia, because we don't spend every waking moment of our day shoving capships down their throat.

LHs pirate mostly in Magellan (surprise) and since most traders use the Leeds JH it's much easier to pirate at a JH with lot of empty space around than at a JG/TL where traders can mostly just dock and escape.

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I honestly think admins need to do something about the base-camping cap problem. I know the Xenos got, and probably still get hit hard at Ouray. When DW was here, it was about 6 times a day that XA undocked to find 4 Gunships sitting literally 2k or less from the dock points and firing before the XA could move.

Yes, base camping enemy bases is a problem. Note, however that it does happen on both sides.
Way to go? :

1. The id changes won't allow BHG caps (cruiser and above) to do that
2. New base loadouts and capship patrols won't encourage that either.

Until then it's up to the players yes.

[color=#FF0000]NY and liberty do have a problem: (which in a way is similar in all other houses).
either
a) there are tons of lawfulls and any small group of pirates gets blasted
or
b) there are tons of unlawfulls and any group of navy/bhg gets blasted

[color=#FF0000]Neither side can properly RP being around the other one at the same time.
a) Lawfulls should not "search" outside of TLs and near enemy bases to get someone to shot at.
=> They should patrol TLs
b) Pirates should not "raid" lawful stations or try to pirate very close to them.
=> They should employ hit and run along TLs

This way you get 2 types of areas:
1. own territory
2. "fighting ground"

Independent systems would fit into the 2nd category, except that only traders/BHG/escorts should be the lawful side there.

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Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.

[Titan]

I don't think there's much else to say except that I agree with Mjolnir and Joe here, they both pretty much nailed it. The trouble also is that about..let's say 60% of the unlawfuls are also the lawfuls and vice versa, so you rarely have an equal and fair setup going on in game. But seriously, just stop talking about it and play the game, it happens to everyone. You can either accept that it does happen, and start enjoying the game even if it does, or you can continue whining every bloody day for all I care, and you will not change anything except you might feel better because you made yourself look like a....whiner? It's nice to blow off steam, but look at the situation from the other side as well. In the end, we're all here to have fun, so simply have fun and don't bitch about it. Also, skype serves much better for resolving such issues, considering about 95% of the people involved in this know each other and are in each other's factions.

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[Jihadjoe]

I would like to point out this has almost nothing (on my side) to do with the LR-.

The LR- are frankly a godsend in liberty, I know what when I see one of them I can be guaranteed some good roleplay (thank you Orin), or a good fight (thank you Orin again)...

I'll try to keep a handle on indy caps coming and ruining your party, and remind the rest of the [LN] that you're not criminals until you've done something wrong...

I know how annoying it is to be swarmed with lawfuls as soon as you start interdicting trade, very annoying indeed...

You also have to appreciate how annoying the gunboat swarm is. I know Del that you've seen how it can ruin people's gameplay.

I think the main problem is that Liberty is overcrowded and chaotic. Too many people wanting too many different things. If some of those players would disperse to Kusari and Bretonia, and fine some interest there it would be fantastic, and then the swarms from either side would only exist when invited to do so.

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