Order vs BHG [Outcome Discussion]

[ophidian]

Jinx, all is well except one point in human nature. At any given day, if a human being feels that he/she has the upper hand over a strategic point, even if its not of an enemy position, he/she will try to dominate or command it.

If Order loses and accepts the BHG sharing of stuff, BHG will soon get interested in Minor since its a "gate" to house spaces (Kusari, Liberty, even Major if it ever turns out to be something operational again). When you are the winning hand and have strategical and power advantage, best decision in means of tactics would be to dominate the asset.

This doesn't necessarily need a "war" or "massacre". Political domination, collapsing of independency etc can all be used as well.

Therefore, the true winners of this war is Nomads for sure and BHG coming after that in means of getting beaten up due to the financial resources. Best outcome for me is to get the Order back in secret terms to a remote location, like Reaven's on going system (under const.) which has connections to some other parts of Sirius and cut lose from Omicrons in a way (like no JH or no cap passage JH or heavy mines, whatever). Order being very "secretive" and hybernating, studying the advancements of Nomads and trying to decide the best strike on them. Political and miltiarywise.

(political strike on nomads means getting in touch with other human parties, not talkin with nomads:P)

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[globalplayer-svk]

One thing tha i dont like on this situation is core nase in delta. Is impossible to buy base when you have 3 strong enemies around.(order,corsairs,nomads) and when so
ehow you manage to build it,it must be so small and so hidden that is impossible to dock capital ships there. (and i mean in rp) and order loosing this war,i can see order asking corsairs for help as their allies and corsairs moving there some ships.not only move them when hunters or nomads attack,,but move some wings there permanently,because order is securing corsairs home system feom one side,so its ib corsair interest to help them in it.on the other side,nomads have interrest in cleaning minor to have free way trough it to tohoku,so i cAn see more wildes operating from tohoku together with keepers.
And in the end core capital ships operating from alaska.i know it is guard system,but they can in rp helping lsf against nomads.
Because when bhg destroy order it willdramaticaly raise corsair interrest in that region,and in rp corsairs have
much more ships, and resources as core so they can then clean minor from hunters.
Or keepers can profit from this war and destroy voth when they will be weak after bhg vs order war.

But my prefered opinion is corsairs helping order to survive and secure gamma from that side

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[Jinx]

for that - its of course hypothetical - cause ... regarding to the vanilla lore - the nomads ARE finished in that part of sirius. - the fact that they rise again is made up by player AS MUCH as that the BHG is interested in them at all - or that the order has build up a faction instead of a network that they intended to do at the end of the official campaign.

human nature isn t easily explained. - not ever military organization wants domination of power. we know nothing of the real ambitions of the BHG - cause we yet have to "make it up". - unless igiss writes up an "official version" - players can turn the BHG into a bloodthirsty organization of zealots that wants to eradicate the good people of toledo - or players can make it up that the BHG core is a group of reasonable people that indeed wish to share their technology for the good of sirius - that is only misunderstood by the order who cunningly weakens the BHG, which is the strongest force to oppose the nomads - and therefor actually threatens humanity.

BOTH scenarios are possible and plausible. - only the popular believe of a faction makes up a picture of a faction unless something "official" is written up. right now - the popular believe is that the BHG is irresponsible and wants to "sell out" humanity. - it would be nice to write up an official manifest of what these factions are really about. - not from the RP point of view of the factions that would always only speak good of themselves - but something ooc. to define "good" and "bad" - IF there is a good and bad anyway. - very often, there isn t good and bad, there is just different.

wars start before any shot is fired - and they rarely end with the signing of a truce. - if history goes on like it did - wars don t really end with the total defeat of one side anymore - that is somewhat "small scale" in ancient times, when there were "sides". - it is most probable that one side gives in before there is a defeat - and it would be terrible for a factions reputation to kick a beaten enemy. ( the BHG doesn t think of itself as the bad ones, the arch-villain that can beat on someone on the floor )

they depend on acceptance and reputation as much as the order. - they both have only "limitless resources" as long as their "sources" ( BHG: the actual bounty hunters // order their contacts in the houses ) work.


@global:

the base was somewhat a necessity. - the whole core fleet making use of FP11 became "illogical" - the new base was a plausible consequence to get rid of the conflicts of zoners, being order allies allowing the whole BHG warfleet shelter. - there was simply NO other way to get rid of that paradox of faction affiliations.

* well, ok - there would have been: - it would have been more logical not to place a "base" there - but rather a stationary "fleet" in the nebula - but we know what problems that can cause ( see isis thread )

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Shipdesigns made for DiscoveryGC

[Tommeh]

My vision of Future between Order and BHG is that Order get pushed out of Minor because of constant BHG and Nomad attacks and retreats to some new system through Omicron 100.It manages to move Evora Shipyard and others important stations to this new system and set's there heavly defenses,so it's impissible to enter with none Order ship.
(Like Underground city Zion from Matrix) I stole this concept from Ophidian;) don't hate me.:mellow:
From that on Order operates from this system and has less influence in Omicrons but it manages to control Keepers in House systems.Order stays in War with BHG but it's less active and battles happen more rarely.
It would be good that Keepers activity increases so the Order can concetrate more on fighting them and doing their real job and not fighting BHG so much as it's now.

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[NonSequitor]

Two paths I see for the future of the Order after losing the war with the BHG:

a) Enters an alliance with the Red Dragons after withdrawing from Toledo. Order operations continue in the Omicrons, operating out of Omicron-100. The jumphole from Minor to Omicron-100 collapses. BHG sets up shop on Toledo, much to the chagrin of Liberty. Corsairs are no longer allies but are placed in a neutral status in Order diplomacy. The Order remains hostile to BHG, but interaction between the two parties is significantly lessened.

or

b) Order enters ceasefire negotiations with the BHG. Talks are brokered by the Zoners. Both the Order and the BHG become more pragmatic concerning the Nomad menace. The Order thus rationalizes that an agreement with the BHG is a more constructive path in dealing with mankind's worse enemy in Sirius. The BHG, realizing the extent of the looming Nomad threat, is ready to relinquish its own exclusive claims on all Nomad technology.

The BHG, having more leverage in the negotiations, would pressure the Order to nullify the alliance with the Corsairs. The Order would insist on overseeing all studies concerning the Nomads. Both parties agree to share intelligence on the Nomads. Both parties agree to share base privileges. There is no technology/vessel exchanges. The Order and BHG would have neutral relations to one another.

Both paths need increased Keeper/Wilde activity to make any sense.

That's my take.

[GuardianCaine]

I think a full assault by Nomads that overruns several of the systems would be a neat option. Basically make it so both the BHG and Order are overrun and out of self preservation they sign a peace agreement.

[Rodent]

My belief is that the Order will gradually weaken under constant assault from many fronts. The BHG will get close to capturing minor, but in all these, the nomads are forgotten and they do a massive fleet buildup and over run both MINOR AND DELTA. If BHG captures Toledo and order flees before that happens, the BHG core is destroyed or significantly weakened.

If Toledo by any chance is not captured when the nomad tide comes, BHG Core and Order may enter into a temporary truce (after all, seeing lotsa purple BS puts sense into people;))

The Order and remnants of the core fleet will dash for Omicron-100 and into an unknown system beyond which ironically has connections with the rest of sirius.

Rest is too far away to conjure.

Comments plz.

[Benjamin]

My vanilla-love wants to see the Order return to small scale snubfighters with unlimited ZoI and alliances with the Blood Dragons and Bundschuh. Having Toledo fall to the Core and the Isis running off in to the Omegas with what remains of the Order would be cool by me.

I'm not at all involved with the Core/Order stuff, and from an outside perspective it basically seems like the entire point of it is to have giant capital ship battles in the Omicrons. It would be nice if it got a bit more dynamic and interesting. I can't be the only one who wants to see the Order flitting around in house space and seeing what's going on, basing off little 'good-guy' bases like Kyoto and Bruchsal and keeping themselves to themselves.

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[globalplayer-svk]

problem is, what will make BHg when they defeat order in minor? they turn against nomads and corsairs.
But ofcourse, corsairs will prevent this, so they start support order more and more. because order is something as mantinel between full war with nomads and core vs corsairs... ( i mean attacks on home system, gamma)

that is factor, that must be counted in... corsairs will not only look howis order forced out of minor.
and zoners i think too. they have their own bussines in that part of sirius, but i think they like that all around are fighting each other, and noone care about what zoners make. but that can end, when is one side too much dominant.

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[Chico]

How about:

The Nomads are Back!!

A massed invasion of Wilde through 55 into Omega 5, occupying both the Hessian and Corsair fleets based there. Realising they could actually both lose, they call a grudging ceasefire and defend against the invaders, which manages to stop the Wilde advance.
Cadiz AND Ronnenberg are lost. Casablanca gives support to the Hessians who are attacking in numbers from Omega 11 (Freital), striking into Omega 5 but Freital is threatened now as Solaris station has already fallen to a surprise attack.
Meanwhile Corsairs move BB Fes into Omega 41 to guard the entry from Omega 5 and the fighter wings on Leon launch strikes, supported by the home fleets.

Bretonia, caught unaware by this possible attack from Omega 5 are busy in Leeds. Kusari offer a ceasefire (secretly to 'dig in' their positions there) and it also enables them to move some of their fleet out to the Sigmas, just in case..
Meanwhile, Bretonia strive to get the Norfolk supported by moving the Suffolk out to Cambridge and some fighter wings.

The Mollys meanwhile thought they were going to have a field day. The corsairs are quiet....too quiet and the Bretonians have lost all interest with them but odd things have been happening in Dublin at the Chester jump hole. Patrols have been simply disappearing. Whats more, some of their miners in the further reaches of Dublin have been seeing strange lights. The same is happening near the Belfast production facility...again, close to the Chester jump hole there...

The nomads have over run Minor. The Order there are lost. Some have withdrawn to the Freeport in Delta and the Corsair base, Yaren. The ones who have retreated to Omicron 100 are fighting a losing battle.
Dragons, aware of the threat are attacking the nomads in Tohoku and Omicron 92 trying to get relief to their one time allies, The Order but it's difficult. The clock is ticking for the Order holding out in Omicron 100. Aware of this, the Dragons call on there old allies in the first Nomad war, the Outcasts.
Only too happy to help (and get back in with the Dragons, maybe even score a few political points with the Order), the Outcast fleet is mobilzed and strike down in support of the Dragons, finally relieving the beseiged bases in Omicron 100.
A Nomad fleet attacks Alpha from Omicron 90 but the Outcasts had been expecting that move having assisted the Dragons earlier and being aware of the Nomad invasions, their fleet easily overcomes the threat.

Elsewhere, the BH in Delta, with their massed fleets have stopped the Nomads but it doesn't look good. Some key commanders had been infected, ready for the nomad push. The war is turning against them.
The Corsair Home Fleet, stretched between the battle for Omega 5 and the relief of Delta decide to concentrate on Delta. Limited, but strong support is still going out to Leon and they appear to be holding well.

The leviathan that is the corsair home fleet arrives in Delta and the massed ranks of humanity begin to smash the nomad fleet, caught between them.

Meanwhile, closer to home, the Tinos outpost in Omicron 94 loses comms with the Corsair Battleship 'Delos'. Shortly after, it recieves a garbled message from the Syros station. Nomads. An armada. Spewing out of the mysterious jump hole in system. The comms goes ominously silent.
The last thing heard from Tinos is an SOS.
The home fleet disengages and retires from Delta, abandoning the BH fleet at Dabadoru to their fate.

Crete is under attack and only the Battleship Prox from Omicron 91 and what ships could have a gun mounted are defending it. Again, the corsair home fleet attacks...

Dabadoru is but a memory. The might of the BH fleets has been smashed by conflict and infection. Yaren and the Freeport 11 are also lifeless. Whats left of humanity in the system start to withdraw, heading for Gamma or maybe Omicron 74. Only the mysterious Battlestar remains untouched by the chaos.
Fleeing as fast as they can, they witness the Nomad fleet jumping into Kappa behind them and begining to form up. Oddly however, there is another presence here.
The harvester fleet is launching from the Robot planet. Soon the battle will be joined again.


A lot of artistic embellishment there.....

Seriously though, I reckon it could go either way. The BH could 'overpower' the Order but they'd just stop fighting the pitched battles and go back to what they were good at. The cloak and dagger stuff.
On the other hand, Liberty could permanantly close Alaska, the Zoners, being allied to the Order would close 74 to the BH and corsairs would just shut down the Malveda cloud. No supplies would get in or out and the BH in Delta would just wither and die. A war of attrition. Either way, the BH would find there position becoming more and more difficult, the harder they pressed the Order because the corsairs, allied to the Order would start attacking them harder and harder.

Then again, the houses might start getting nervous of all these massive fleets with massive support and an unhealthy interest in nomad tech... I see lots of opportunities. I wouldn't want to see one or the other side lose completely. (Well maybe the BH but I'm biased aren't I?:yes:)

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