After the last debate it was decided (it seemed) that having the quadrant was acceptable, so I'm not looking to remove it.
After realizing that we already do have precedent for hiding very limited amounts of data for the good of RP (namely stuff surrounding Kansas, wink wink nod nod), I see no reason not to extend that policy here. Same will go for stuff like Battleship Atum, Unknown Object, Corsica Outer Sanctum, and anything in a purple cloud (in my mind at least). You can't exactly quote that as official policy, seeing as I'm not the only sysop there, but I think it's reasonable.
Some say that he's a CIA experiment that went wrong, and that he only eats cheese. All we know is that he's not The Stig - he's The Stig's American cousin. Wiki sysop (admin-ish) | I do custom ship renders (and bases)
As the main Wiki editor for HF, I personally think that's great. You could also mention that, if there's any reason for their character to already know about it (within the context that not all Hackers do know about its location to begin with), they can contact us out of roleplay to get the location.
Thank you, cshake. And you Soong.
Honestly, I didn't even mind having it in the spoiler section that much, just not in the infobox. Just didn't think to spoiler it myself.
So I prefer this, but wouldn't be especially annoyed over a spoiler, either. And regardless, as Tycho said, it's all moot when .86 comes out anyways.
' Wrote:I am so not amused by this.
OP, I hope you're not going to start another thread without having enough information at hand ever again. At least talk with a member of the faction before starting a topic here.
Anyways, the mod -is- called Discovery, so it's up to you whether you go find it yourself or ask someone. No secret locations are going to be posted unless the factions want them to be. So I'd suggest talking to those factions.
I'm sorry, I was under the delusion that the wiki was supposed to be a guide to discovery as a mod, for the consumption of the masses - not something that private factions can go about manipulating as they see fit.
"Welcome to the Discovery Community Wiki - a useful asset to new and experienced players alike. Feel free to browse through our detailed lists of equipment, in-depth articles explaining our mod's elaborate background story and it's actors and our collection of guides designed to get you started. Also, you are welcome to add content to this Wiki yourself, too - just don't forget to read through our Style Guide before you start editing. Enjoy your stay!"
Guess by community, the welcoming paragraph meant faction owned. The medium by which the Discovery Mod guide is hosted is called a Wiki for a reason - it's meant to serve everyone with useful and relevant information free from censorship by any certain group.
The new revision as of now is NOT a middle ground - location which used to be located in the spoiler tag is absent - all it says is to ask a member of the HF, something which was available to begin with. If this sticks, we might as well remove EVERYTHING from the wiki and slap on a "ask a relevant faction member for details" tag on it.
' Wrote:Since someone finally bothered to let me know about this, I will comment.
I personally removed the location of Fort Leniex from the Wiki.
I did not do this to set a precedent. Please reread the discussion: it was concluded that the sector, but not the exact location, would be shown.
I don't see why Fort Leniex in particular is such an issue.
For instance, the Unknown Object in Chester; it is a Nomad base, and it has the sector - the sector, not where exactly it is in relation to the plane - on it.
New York and Alaska; absolutely no mention of how to get past the mine field.
Corsica Outer Sanctum's Wiki page doesn't mention its exact location in comparison to the plane, either, and it's far more public than Leniex (albeit visible on scanners)
Same goes for the Alien Jump Gate in Kansas; it says its below the plane, yes, but it doesn't say exactly where below the plane.
Terre Haute's Wiki page doesn't say exactly where it is, either, does it?
I could even get ridiculous and say "Does the Missouri's say where it is compared to the plane?". After all, it is 50m below the plane.
Why on earth should Leniex's exact location be specified, then?
Are you panicking because the Hellfire Legion account was the one to bring that into constancy with every single other base, secret or otherwise, that's anywhere on the Wiki? Would you rather I have created a totally separate account to do exactly the same thing?
I fail to see why this is a problem when it was the conclusion of both a discussion by other editors and consistent with all other similar articles. The only falsification that went on is the removal of the distance and direction off the plane that it was.
So go nitpick elsewhere and stop Q_Q'ing because your article edit was undone to match the pre-discussed conclusion and to maintain consistency.
It has nothing to do with stopping people from getting equipment, either. If you're really too lazy to find it yourself, you can even (gasp!) ask someone. If you're a Hacker, most other Hackers/VR members/HF members'll be decent enough to let you know, out of character, where the place is. If you're on the official server, we might even show you.
That said, this'll all be a moot point when .86 rolls around, so I honestly don't care if you add it back. I removed it for the sake of consistency; if the Administration doesn't want it removed, I could honestly care less.
Game, people. Game. Not worth starting flame threads over, especially for something this ridiculously trivial.
... And oh my goodness people are posting fast.
cshake: Again, could care less. It's easy to do; just keep it consistent. The distance off the plane was sitting right there next to the coordinates in the infobox. There's not one other article where that's been done.
EisenSeele: Oh yes. It's a faction conspiracy. Keep it up. I hear the wholesalers are making a fortune off of tin hats these days.
Seriously, I'm not sure what else to say to that. Might've made me laugh if it wasn't a little bit pathetic.
Soong: Good points, in general. And less of an essay than mine, too.
Everyone: Simmer down, people. Game.
Amazing... just absolutely amazing. So you propose that since there are problems with other base locations not noting planar location, we should leave the Fort Leniex location issue unfixed? Your appeal to the "meh, the other stuff are wrong so we might as well leave this problem unfixed too" logic aside, would it be better if I personally addressed those locations as well? Consistency be damned if there's a problem you fix it or let it be fixed - and the little fixes will accumulate until everything has been consistently fixed. Since your rationale was spawned from a "don't wanna bother to do this cause it'd be too much work" attitude, I'd suggest you leave it so that the willing can fix as much as they can. More relevant information never hurts - and as a wiki, relevant information flows in, not out.
Oh and... about Corsica Outer Sanctum, check the bottom of the page, in the tab marked spoilers.
' Wrote:I'm starting an official investigation. Those in charge of wiki falsification will be reprimanded to the fullest extent of the law.
Assuming that wasnt sarcasm, could be intersting.
' Wrote:As for the off-plane location in the spoiler, I could take it or leave it, provided the same thing happens to Corsica Outer Sanctum.
thats actualy pretty damend easy to find, cruise straight up, exit cloud, look for big rock.
Past that, come .86 the LH GS needs to be sold at a LH base rather than a hidden HF legion base.
My two cents on hiding hidden stuff on the wiki: If it's location is hidden for a reason, have a template added to the wiki for those locations.
IE: [sekret] would add a nice little graphic box with text to the effect of LOCATIONNAME's exact location is purposely not revealed, the exact reason can varry depending on location.
That gets added, folks know for a fact that it's exact location is harder to find but at the same time can at least assume that what info IS given is accurate.
Everybody calm down. That means you too EisenSeele.
There is a lot of history about these issues. You cannot just jump in like that without stepping on alot of peoples toes. It is NOT as easily solved as you think it is. I've been working on this and many other similar issues for a long time.
Maybe the mindset you are coming up against came from me in the first place. For a long time I WAS the Wiki guy. Hardly anyone else was contributing. I set many of the precedents, templates and usage instructions. Then a group formed around me, and we carried on.
At that stage, I had no choice but to pick and choose what to do, since I had loads of time, but no wiki skill. I got little direction from Igiss. When I did what Igiss wanted I got yelled at by members of the community, much like what you are doing now. When I did what members of the community wanted, I got yelled at by factions. When I did what factions wanted, I got yelled at by "independents". Sound familiar?
So I made some decisions, based on what I thought was best at the time. These mindsets have been around a long time, and you can't just jump the gun like you are doing.
Work alongside the existing editors. You are a new person, and while you are a valued member of the wiki team you are not the one making all the decisions. Nor do you seem to be aware of the background issues as to WHY things are, as they are now. There are lots of things to consider. If you want to change something, you must first study, and become that something and THEN change it from the inside out. If you bang it with a hammer, as you are doing, you'll not only break something, but you might also hurt others in the process.
One thing I have tried to instill is an inclusion policy. We need more wiki editors, no two ways about it.
However, there are also instances where delicacy is need in the dissemination of information. In these cases, use tact, and long-term goals to get your way, rather than blasting a problem along with the solution. Use persuasion instead of emotional anger. If logic is too hard for others to take, then use appeals to emotions. Appeals based on fact are not fallacy, and can work wonders in getting your own way.
Just telling someone they are wrong never works.
If I'm being too general let me know. I'll be far more direct if you need me to be. You may not like the answers but it might be more plain.
As far as this particular issue goes, I've LONG had it a policy that factions are responsible for their own pages. This goes especially for SPECIFIC factions.
I'll try to break down the thinking that is in use here.
The wiki IS primarily for THIS server. Igiss/A&L guy owns the whole freaking lot. You can't argue with that. Whoever owns the hardware owns the stuff. They might rent server space, but they pay the bills. That's how life goes. They have final say, but they are also human and fallible. They are also reasonable people and can be persuaded away from their initial viewpoint, if given enough time to think, and respect to hold their own opinion.
In saying that, it is useful to have SOME information for every community that uses the Discovery Mod. Igiss ALSO agrees with that. However, to facility that, we need to move slowly.
Information can be split into separate categories. There is common knowledge. There is factional knowledge, and there is personal knowledge. There is also "secret" knowledge you are supposed to "Discover". For instance, Igiss has said that he wants people to "Discover" things. My wiki team and I fought long and hard to gain the spoiler tag facility SO that we could put things on the wiki that were considered "not-common" knowledge, but were certainly useful for members of factions. The premise being to build UP the wiki to a point where it does indeed fulfill the first paragraph and it's intention of being useful to ALL members of THIS SERVER of Disco.
The problem arises when you have differing Lore for each faction for different servers. For instance : If we put on the LPI page that Chief Matt Myers (Zapp) is the Head of LPI, and that he has to be obeyed by faction members AND independent players alike (for cohesion in roleplay, otherwise there is chaos, in a police force that is NEVER chaotic like that. Pirate groups, sometimes ; police force, no,) then the Berlin Discovery community want the Lore to state that Marilyn Monroe on their server is the Commandant of the LPI, then which server gets prime position to dictate to the others what is going on? Do all servers have to play by THIS servers Lore that there is Matt Myers, and only ever Matt Myers as Chief of LPI? No. That's preposterous.
It's also preposterous to have a disambiguation page for every server's LPI force, and so on, * amount of factions * amount of servers * times amount of factional splits. It's a ridiculus amount of work, and SOMEBODY has to keep it updated. Much of the information cannot be written up by a bot from the inis. That's the easy info. Anyone with half a brain and two eyes can grab stuff from ini files.
It's also a question of WHO is going to keep these things updated. Are you going to continue keeping all things "secret" updated? What happens when you get tired of that game and want to play something else? Are you going to fulfil the obligation you have now created for yourself, in sticking around to continually update those "secret" things? Or are you going to (as has been demonstrated in the past on many other games and wikis, and individual pages and factions WITHIN this wiki alone... that you will simple go "enough!" and walk away?) It's VERY VERY likely the latter. In fact I would almost bet on it. That's a heavy burden to wear my friend. It's much better to ask people to be responsible for themselves, and if they choose not to update, or to hide information, then that is up to them.
What you ask for is full disclosure. Even Igiss doesn't do that. It's impractical, and not worth anything. Every Dev agrees to a NDA when they sign up, because of the many fights and arguments that DO appear, when things are disclosed that people do not like. Just look at the Newly released 4.86 info thread.
It's much better to have SOME information that is useful to the majority, than to be squabbling over a LITTLE bit of information, than no-one really cares about. Those involved have asked it to remain "secret" information, to facilitate IN GAME roleplay by asking existing members, and to help people who are actually interested. We should be respecting that, rather than over-riding them, because of a full-disclosure policy that exists only in your own mind.
So again, I ask you to kindly drop the subject, and find something more useful to do on the wiki. We can continue to "debate" this until the cows come home, but I can tell you in full experiential authority, that I've been there and done that. It's not worth the grief that you'll put yourself through if you continue on this track.
Ultimately the choice is yours, but I urge you not to push and shove the way you are doing. Come alongside the existing editors and ask them what they would like to be done, to use your passion for accuracy and detail in a way that benefits us all, not just some imagined slight on ambiguous "unknown players rights".
Sovereign Wrote:Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.
' Wrote:The wiki IS primarily for THIS server. Igiss/majkp owns the whole freaking lot. You can't argue with that. Whoever owns the hardware owns the stuff. They might rent server space, but they pay the bills. That's how life goes. They have final say, but they are also human and fallible. They are also reasonable people and can be persuaded away from their initial viewpoint, if given enough time to think, and respect to hold their own opinion.
Little update for you, Soong, since you've been away a while - it's no longer majkp, now Arms & Legs Guy is the server guy.
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