Clarification needed: foreign navies with enhanced ZOI enforcing rp consequences

[Laura C.]

Laura, I am for anything that will "remove" any possible issues but to keep the basis of the change intact. In short - if you have a good idea forward it to the admins and lets hope they will find a good solution. I don't want to sound like someone who requested this change but I do agree that these changes are suitable and reflect the current RP between the Houses.

I mentioned the solution already, you just somehow did not comment about it.

it won´t stop for example indies from enforcing laws in another house. Possible solution I see is to not add Omega-3/O-7 as part of ZOI, but only add line worded something like "Can enforce Rheinland laws and assist Rheinland lawfuls in Omega-7" for BAF and "Can enforce Bretonian laws and assist Bretonian lawfuls in Omega-3" for RM.

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On a ragebreak. Or ragequit. Time will tell.

[FallenKnight]

Jack, I read all you said and I share your concerns. But I would recommend you to read the link I gave above - for the treaty under construction thread. The "Task Force" mentioned is the ONLY official force that would be allowed to enter Bretonia with a very very clear duty - to protect their dauman base on top of warming the mutual cooperation between the Houses. If someone creates extremists or etc - Rheinland Government should act accordingly and sanction them in RP. The point of our treaty is not to simply allow Rh lawfuls inside nor the opposite with Br forces - we are simply RPing around a huge problem and thats the Omega Enemies. InRP you are aware Breotnia cant handle all fronts...and now is the best time to warm the relations with Rheinland and possibly return the favor being with extensive trading partnerships exclusive to Rheinland, filling their pockets, or by small squadrons to assist them if needed.
Do not mess this with OORp gank attempts. Nobody sane is working on this treaty with one thing in mind - to gank others with navies..no. We are simply RPing accordingly, considering the whole situation of the Omegas and the rising number of scum/pirates/unlawful mercs/corsairs/hessians/coalition/nomads/wilds...Bretonia nor Rheinland can't handle them alone but together perhaps they will - thats for RP sake. The expectations from a RP are usually higher than the ingame actions alone.

Also, Omega-3 is Bretonian territory as a whole but we are well aware of your IMG base and trust me - its existence was not ignored during our oorp discussions. Also we havent contacted IMG yet but we shall do so soon. The reasons for that are because overall the Omega Alliance we are up to create with Rheinland doesn't concern you as much as it does concerns us. The point of this Alliance is to protect our sovereign systems and the people inside, so indirectly we are protecting you as well.

PS: I wont comment the zoners - represented by Freeport 3. That station is causing so much RP problems to Bretonia so lets say that zoners would be the least of our problems and thats coming from RP perspective. Zoners ignored tons of transmissions sent to them so if we considering this from OORP pov - they are afk.

Laura, sorry I am a bit distracted due to the fact I am having a break at work. You know we can't solve anything like that - its admins duty to handle it. That is why I recommended you to contact them. Here the solutions would be lost.

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[xiphos]

The ID's need atleast a no capship line in Omega 3 for the RM/MND and Omega 7 for the BAF/BIS then. Without a line like this, i bet a few Independent players are going to create trouble. Just for fun

[Laura C.]

If someone creates extremists or etc - Rheinland Government should act accordingly and sanction them in RP.

That can not happen due to rules. If someone will complain about being harrased by Rheinland lawfuls in Omega-3, Rheinland official lawful faction can not act and make roleplay consequencies for them unless they directly witness it, because

House Controlled Space
- House Military, Police, and Intelligence factions may enforce roleplay consequences upon any players, factions, and POBs found breaking House Laws within House Controlled Space, only if they are personally there to witness the legal infraction while uncloaked and equipped with a House Military, Police, or Intelligence faction ID.

And even if they will witness it, only RM can make consequencies, but not RFP because Omega-3 is not in our ZOI

All Systems
- House Miltary, Police and Intelligence factions may enforce roleplay consequences only for actions occurring within their ZOI.

That´s why I agree with Jack about this being quite a problem (and you could see elsewhere that otherwise I have no problem with this change and I don´t share Jack´s general point of view about it). Badly worded ID combined with current rules can make some real mess down there.

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On a ragebreak. Or ragequit. Time will tell.

[FallenKnight]

Laura, I read your proposal and I support it. It will clear any possible irritations and bad indies behavior. At the same time it will keep the option clear for Houses to continue with their initial RP. To be stated clearly in the RM/BDM ID that RM/BDM can enter O-3 to support BAF forces if needed and visa versa for the BAF ID is going to save the day. If the admins haven't noticed this - poke them about it.

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[Jack_Henderson]

Jack, I read all you said and I share your concerns. But I would recommend you to read the link I gave above - for the treaty under construction thread. The "Task Force" mentioned is the ONLY official force that would be allowed to enter Bretonia with a very very clear duty - to protect their dauman base on top of warming the mutual cooperation between the Houses. [...] InRP you are aware Breotnia cant handle all fronts...and now is the best time to warm the relations with Rheinland and possibly return the favor being with extensive trading partnerships exclusive to Rheinland, filling their pockets, or by small squadrons to assist them if needed.

I do not contest the irp thinking behind a partnership of security because I think it makes irply sense (at least for Bretonia). Why Rheinland is willing to aid Bretonia instead of exploiting its weakness, I do not understand fully, but that's a House player decision and it likely is good (gameplaywise), as it does not make the situation of Bretonia even more "unrealistic" (in the sense of: why do they even exist any more at the moment). So... no flak from me for the irp thinking in this complete rp project.

Personally, I would have preferred a "RFP-BPA" cross border assistance program, which somehow I would find more fitting. It would also give players a reason to have a police ship instead of going for Navy (see: "struggling police IDs" issue). Using police IDs would also limit ship classes somewhat (we all know that caps always create the rage) and cross-border cooperation somewhat works better in my imagination between police forces than with armies/navies, but anyway: you made that choice and I can also live with it.

If someone creates extremists or etc - Rheinland Government should act accordingly and sanction them in RP. The point of our treaty is not to simply allow Rh lawfuls inside nor the opposite with Br forces - we are simply RPing around a huge problem and thats the Omega Enemies.

This has already been answered by translucent-rabbit, so I'll just point there and reinforce that there is no way RheinGov could act (ZoI rules), AND I know from the last few attempts to create Rheinland lawful groups to shoot IMG that the oorp interest of certain players in high positions would not contain "sanctioning" this sort of behaviour. More likely, it would be covered up irp and welcomed.

That's why I am so adamant on this being a rule aspect because I know for sure that "player to player gentlemen's agreements" will not work.
But I think we are on the same page there anyway now, so we only need a solution, e.g. Laura's to be implemented.
It's basically an Admin decision now to limit the fallout of the seemingly easy change in ZoI.

Also, Omega-3 is Bretonian territory as a whole but we are well aware of your IMG base and trust me - its existence was not ignored during our oorp discussions. Also we havent contacted IMG yet but we shall do so soon. The reasons for that are because overall the Omega Alliance we are up to create with Rheinland doesn't concern you as much as it does concerns us. The point of this Alliance is to protect our sovereign systems and the people inside, so indirectly we are protecting you as well.

Just talk to me next time, player to player.
My initial reaction would have been a lot less hostile and defensive if this thing had not been dropped out of a clear sky right onto me.

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To sum it up: I do not oppose the general idea as passionately as my initial reaction suggests after I see that the main participants explain things, care and act cool in general - but mostly I find it reassuring that we seem to share the view that we have a rule problem there.

Once that is fixed, I think the rest can be worked with somehow. I will always be strictly opposed to "Houses taking away the Borderworlds from non-House factions", but I guess we can agree to be on different sides in this by default and still somewhere find compromises that somehow do not completely sideline and marginalize non-House factions in O3/O7.

I have a few ideas there.

[Thunderer]

Yes, this is very abusable. And as we have learned, indies will abuse everything they find. They'll bring battleships to Omega-3 and enforce Rheinland laws, and you can't FR5 them for following their ID line, can you, especially if there's no official to witness it?

Perhaps this ZOI extension should only be applied to official factions. After all, the Omega Treaty says:
"The entering vessels must be accompanied by a pilot ranking Feldwebel or above.*
The entering vessels must not be of any larger class than the Rheinwehr korvette, unless permission is granted by Government-approved personnel*."

Another possible solution could be adding Omega-7/3 to the BAF/BIS and RM/BDM ID respectively, behind the "can enforce laws" line, as an exception. The same could be done to the LN ID for Bretonia. In that case we wouldn't have to bother asking LN caps to leave if there are no frogs around.

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[Laura C.]

Perhaps this ZOI extension should only be applied to official factions.

This may be a solution but it will kind of kills the effect when officials and indies of one side won´t be able to ask indies of other side for help.

Another possible solution could be adding Omega-7/3 to the BAF/BIS and RM/BDM ID respectively, behind the "can enforce laws" line, as an exception. The same could be done to the LN ID for Bretonia.

Proposed that already

Possible solution I see is to not add Omega-3/O-7 as part of ZOI, but only add line worded something like "Can enforce Rheinland laws and assist Rheinland lawfuls in Omega-7" for BAF and "Can enforce Bretonian laws and assist Bretonian lawfuls in Omega-3" for RM.

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On a ragebreak. Or ragequit. Time will tell.

[Thunderer]

Right. I've missed it because I've skim read all the 3 pages of mostly walls of text, sorry. I agree with your proposal. Perhaps a line preventing caps from accessing could be added, except if the new treaty allows their access as well.

A somewhat related, funny thought I've had: a RM BS enforcing the Bretonian law against foreign caps in Bretonia, in Omega-3.

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Bretonian Charter of Interstellar Law Bretonian Secrets Act

[Jack_Henderson]

I'd say:

> Do not restrict indies. Indies are an important part of the game. Exclusiveness of officials is something that is not conducive to the game.

> Do not restrict ship class. Depending on the incoming raid, it can make sense to have a choice. I think shipclass management is covered by the pledge on both Rheinland and Bretonian leaders' side to try and keep things levelled.

I think that Laura's solution is easiest and works best.

Add that 1 line into the 4 IDs and it is fixed, clear and not abusable any more.
The "ZoI list" is very hard to read anyway and I guess that 80+ % of players do not know about it or do not understand its implications anyway.

Keeping things easy and understandable aids everybody.