Missiles everywhere!

[Dab]

well - alright, i gotto admit, i had .... let me try to remember......... zero pvps with "jinx" in the last 5 months.

but i have been fighting opponents with missiles and sunslayer as a BHG. - and when all my equipment got ripped apart - it wasn t the opponents fault to mount and use the sunslayer and cannonballs + paralyzer... it was my fault that i wasn t flexible enough to do anything but joust.

i had ( some time ago ) a fight on Clover against a BAF challenger. - i had 4 debs and 1 firestalker + 1 cannonball mounted ( a standard loadout for me sort of ) ..... i easily drained the slow fighters shields... but had no chance hitting him, cause he started to dodge.

now, i agree - the bad part is.... if i had forced to fight it to the end, this fight would have lasted for a long long time, cause he could have dodged leaving little time to use hte missiles ( my only way to damage his hull ... and i was in a chimera at that time ) .... i easily outturned him, but firing the missiles into his back was a waste of ammo..

so after about 10 min and a few unlucky shots - i simply retreated. - no point fighting such a battle to the end... and a fight were no one dies is still not a lost fight.
i DO think that the use of any weapons loadouts - no matter how extreme it might be ( like 6 cannonballs as a support ship or whatever strange things you may see ) is OK. - in certain situations it may be annoying or even vexing to fight such an opponent - but then.... i d say, this person has just had the good fortune to come with a very efficient loadout.

i would never dream of yelling at a player that used all missiles ( even if i wasn t doing the same thing anyway ) --- but then, i do retreat quite quickly, too - and i hardly ever let a battle last longer than 20 minutes.

the question is - where does it end. - personally, i have a much greater problem with bombers mounting 4 heavy codenames or 4 coladas. ( problem in terms of.... it causes me problems in a fight )
edit:

@Dab: would it be OK then to use 6 missiles in 4.85 - where all ships are equally vulnerable? or to use 6 missiles in a vanilla fighter vs. a non vanilla fighter - is that OK?

To the last;
Yes, completely okay because doing so won't give anyone an unfair advantage due to modding mishaps. Everyone is equally vulnerable to that weaponry.

And your Chimaera fight, first 2 missiles is fine. And further, your in a vanilla fighter. (Isn't pure vanilla, but its a vanilla model with different stats, still missile-vulnerable though.) My ONLY issue is with non-vanilla fighters packing 3+ missiles/torps and spamming those along with mines at non-vanilla fighters. Because assuming I could CD his missiles/mines at him, an explosion that would kill me only scratches him. Thats what makes it unfair. If this game were real, both ships would be equally vulnerable, with the only difference being how much anti-explosive armoring one had, which would have drawbacks of its own. But here in the game, they are NOT equally vulnerable, and its not because of engineering or anything, but because we didn't have the ability to wireframe those ships and give them the same vulnerability as the vanilla ones. And their defense against explosives has no drawback.

Thats why it is unfair, because they have an unjustifiable advantage that is not backed by reason, and people seek to abuse that advantage for their own gain by missile spamming fighters who don't have that advantage. And this advantage creates a huge gap between the two sets of ships, and nothing is in place to equalize them.

Once the vulnerability is removed and everyone is equal, missiles will be nothing different from conventional weaponry, equal to everyone, and then it won't care what set of missiles or how many you use.


EDIT:

Hell Dab Ive got loads of vanilla fighters carrying missiles, Eagle, Sabre Guardian etc. I know your not having a go at ppl flying these ships, but its not a players fault if he brings a non vanilla fighter with missiles, it's the mods, and it's soon to change so we all win.

Its the player's fault when he intentionally does it just to use the unfair advantage it gives him.

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[looqas]

Copy pasting and modifying my stance on the issue.


The missiles would be well balanced if the splash damage would be completely removed. Make it on par with guns in this regard. The missile splash damage coupled with the CDM being the first one to fry usually leaves you pretty open to more missiles after which you can kiss your weps goodbye.

In 1vs1 it's fine to use missiles, but it gets annoying if the other guy solely bases his "skills" on them and has a dual layout. I agree with Dab that you just can't evade all the missiles in a fight. Not if you fancy taking some shots by yourself too on the enemy. And waiting for him to deplete his ammo can be a very long process indeed. As things stand now people really do not generally need to make their missile shots count. Nor mines for that regard.

So I say 40 ammo for both would be enough. And still is plenty if you don't spam them.

If you are waiting for opponents ammo to run out you will most likely be ganked anyway (depends where you are flying).

The biggest problem I have with missiles is that very few people in the server have the decency to refrain from using the missiles in 1vs2, 1vs3 or 1vsN. And this I mean being on the superior side in numbers.

And being pretty successful with missiles does not take too much skill. Not if you know a little bit EKing and are in even sightly comparable ships what comes to their turning. I still believe that missiles should serve as a side weapon and not take 1/3 or 2/3 of hull.


I'm interested to see the new non-vanillasized ships and what tweaks have been made to weapons in general.

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Flying under radar.

[Rudo]

And being pretty successful with missiles does not take too much skill. Not if you know a little bit EKing and are in even sightly comparable ships what comes to their turning. I still believe that missiles should serve as a side weapon and not take 1/3 or 2/3 of hull.
I'm interested to see the new non-vanillasized ships and what tweaks have been made to weapons in general.

Ever eat a Sunslayer? Even in a non-vanilla ship they're still something to be feared.

I relied heavily on them at one point before I switched over to razors, after which I just use whatever seems to best fit the ship I fly in terms of RP and utility. Fitting anything but a CD on a ship you want to catch people in makes you look very stupid when your quarry just decides to leave.

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[Dab]

Ever eat a Sunslayer? Even in a non-vanilla ship they're still something to be feared.

Yes, they are more dangerous on non-vanillas than missiles, but one hit kills ANY vanilla ship. And it still takes several hits to strip the weaps off a non-vanilla..

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[Panzer]

Ya know, I personally don't like fighter missles - even though they'd make a killin' amongst 1.0 ships.

A missle is a primitive thinker - and because it thinks poorly it mmight as well not think at all.

A gun is totally objective and devoid of any intellect. That is why it's reliable.

And it doens't run outta ammo

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[Cawdor]

well, as it was stated before, every loadout (or strategy) has is downsides/counters. The only problem is that, at least in my oppinion, the couter to missiles or most instant-killers is a rather annoying one.
Since CMs can't be takes into account as they are rarely useful, you will always have to dance around your opponent when your shield is down and wait until its back up again. This seriously stretches PvP fights as most of us already experienced. And anyone of you, no matter how much experience you have, will agree that PvP fights already take a rather long time as-is.

Then there is the CD, of course: a very defensive choice when it comes to mounting something into your torp-slot. Still, I actually quite liked it since its a useful tool to kill the enemy's EK/Cruise and I often think about it as an ammo-fueled shield. But lacking a minirazor is a serious downside in any kind of combat situation. The CD will keep the opponent _you are currently jousting_ at bay, but thats about it. Of course there are those non-vanilla vs vanilla situations dab ist constantly complaining about, where a non-vanilla ship can actually afford the damage it is taking by the blast when it hits a vanilla ship that is passing by, thus not caring about the CD vs Missile timing. So even here, you would have to dance around your opponent, killing precious time of your life.

But don't get me wrong here. Missiles aren't all bad (even though they make you waste more time of your life in a trader and run out of ammo some time (but then again: since anybody mounts missiles these days, I guess you will be able to restock after someone gets killed)). I think of them as something that gives new players a little boost. they don't require as much skill as guns do and are fairly easy to handle, yet treacherous when used in the wrong moments.

Its just a little annoying lately that, when being in a fight, I have to choose between (not) jousting a SNing Bomber or someone who has more than 2 missiles mounted (thus not worth jousting at) and waste my time anyway with flying around my opponents like a fly around steaming piles.

x_x

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[Kambei]

Man that is caled evolution... jousting is oldest fight style, SNACS and missiles are reason why it is now completly wrong way how to fight. It is same as in real life, we have missiles, machineguns etc. etc. and there is no chance how to win battle with prehistoric strategy "yeeeehaaaaaa". Frontal attack with wooden stick against someone with automatic weapon didnt work, but if you are agile enough to dodge his fire, you can wait till he must reload and thats the time to smash his head with your weapon of doom - the stick.

What is the point? If you are Lord of the stick and your skill with that weapon is on master level or if you are just sentimental and refuse to use modern technology, you must change your strategy or accept to be owned almost every time.

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[Cawdor]

boredom can hardly be considered as a result of evolution. But maybe thats just me.

Edit: Obviously its just me, because I seem to be the only person without a missile launch mounted. So ... never mind.

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[Primus Avatar]

What is the point? If you are Lord of the stick and your skill with that weapon is on master level or if you are just sentimental and refuse to use modern technology, you must change your strategy or accept to be owned almost every time.

I agree. All thou i think that person has the right to keep to his own viewpoints. Its easy to force opinion but at what cost?

on topic: I approve any loadout within RP.

A 6-missile fighter, good VS 1 pilot
Bad in big battles (ammo runs out fast)

A 6-8 missile gunboat, good versus majority of fighters
but cant do squat about caps

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wassup

[tansytansey]

It's not really missiles that are the problem here. I don't care if people mount a missile launcher. But they don't. They mount two. And a Sunnie on top of that. And if that's not enough, most of them don't even bother to use guns, they just fire missiles on every pass. The rest just shoot until your shields go down, then spam missiles.
So what do you do when you're in a Greyhound with 4 guns fighting a Ravens Claw with 6 guns + 2 missiles?
The skill it takes to dodge missile spam is a lot harder than it takes to spam them.
There is nothing wrong with the balance of missiles, in terms of damage per second (not taking into account that fighters use multiple guns) they are only slightly better than guns, the problem lies with the way people abuse them. That's something we can't solve.

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