Zoner vote regarding the actions of the Asgard Warriors

[Malaclypse 666]

Heh.

This coming from the person who jumped in a fight while calling himself a true Zoner..

Your hypocrisy is appalling.

Check the Info card on the Zoner ID you're gripping so tightly.

I was perfectly within my rights to participate on the "lawful" side. Particularly as I was invited by a friend.

The solution is so simple, Dab. I still believe you're an intelligent fellow. How can you not see it?

Either behave like a Zoner, or lose the ID. Seems simple to me.

I'm done.

Don't call us. We'll call you.

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[gezza999]

OK, lemme make this clear, so that people don't start getting funny ideas, I HAVEN'T voted in this thread, it isn't really my place, I have a Zoner Character, but it only has an ID, not a tag, and its a scout. I don't think that Dab would stoop so low to vote in this thread, when you specifically said that he shouldn't...

I don't see why we would have to "compensate" the "damage" that we've apparently inflicted.. We can't really measure that damage, so I don't see how we could decide on a correct amount of compensation.. When AW do something we say that AW done it, not the Zoners.

And, I've always thought of AW as a kind of "splinter group" from the Zoners, they're the closest thing to AW, but we're not exactly the same, hence we do not speak for all Zoners.

Yeah, I'm trying to NOT make this even worse, or dip into the pool of flame that is slowly starting to form...

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[Dab]

Ah, but by YOUR description, Zoners should not have any enemies or allies. So according to YOURSELF, you shouldn't have even gotten involved in the fight. But you seem fit to press YOUR views on our actions, but not inclined to follow what you describe as a Zoner's actions. Thats like Liberty Navy saying smuggling is bad, then bringing in a load of cardi.

As I said. Hypocrisy.

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[Ant]

Ah, but by YOUR description, Zoners should not have any enemies or allies. So according to YOURSELF, you shouldn't have even gotten involved in the fight. But you seem fit to press YOUR views on our actions, but not inclined to follow what you describe as a Zoner's actions. Thats like Liberty Navy saying smuggling is bad, then bringing in a load of cardi.

Actually, there is nothing to say a Zoner can't be friendly or unfriendly with individuals or groups, as long as it doesn't violate the rules of neutrality.

If someone is attacked in an unprovoked(or criminal) manner, a Zoner has every right to respond to this as an individual at the time.
What is not acceptable is adding the attacker to a list of enemies. They can certainly have a bounty put on them for a criminal action but a Zoner should at the worst treat that ship with caution the next time they meet.

If someone is clearly ignoring the requests of the local authorities, a Zoner has no right to intercede on their behalf.

[Korrd]

Technically, if we analize the Zoner behaviour they are not lawfuls, nor unlawfuls. They help and allow both sides... Read the comments in the Zoner stations as proof. Also, see who is inside the zoner bars. Yes, both lawfuls and unlawfuls.

So why are the Zoners not allowed to engage on unlawful activities? Isn't helping and allowing pirates in the station considered as an unlawful activity?
I can tell you that in most countries, helping criminals or allowing them in your house/shop without calling the police, is a crime. And you can go to jail for doing it.
So technically, the Zoners allowing pirates, selling stuff to them, repairing his ships, etc, is an unlawful activity. If we consider that, we realize that the ID is wrong.

They Should be allowed to engage in both activities, or denied from attacking other people unless attacked first. 2nd one is much like the neutral ID, and would render the Neutral ID obsolete.

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[pchwang]

True, but the Zoners do not do it in the open. They do it secretly, which is the factor that separates them from being Junkers.

From what you just said, there would be no point for a Zoner tag.

I have no problem with the AW using the Zoner tag, as long as you do not claim to be Zoners. (Which you are not doing.)

EDIT: Wanted to add something.

The Zoners should definitely have friends, and prefer to help others, but then again, the AW are NOT Zoners AT ALL. The Zoners violate neutrality ALL the time, they just do it covertly, not blatantly firing on unfavored faction's vessels.

The Zoners also have an alliance(With IMG), so they are not precluded from making future alliances.

If a Xenos pilot came aboard a Zoner station, they should be fine, and the Zoners can protect them (Should they choose to do so).

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[7:42:05 PM][6:51:36 PM] Igor (Smokey): btw terry
[6:51:48 PM] Terrance Cooper: Ye?
[6:52:00 PM] Igor (Smokey): nothin
[6:52:03 PM] Igor (Smokey): just sayin btw
[6:52:05 PM] Terrance Cooper: <_<

Johnny_Haas: you shot anti criuse speed rockets!!!
Johnny_Haas: but why????
Johnny_Haas: ??
Johnny_Haas: why you shoot criuse speed rockets?

[Dab]

Elgato, for the most part your right.. Except for the first part. The Zoners DO NOT hide the fact that they allow unlawfuls on their station. Heck, it says in news that anyone is welcome on a Zoner base, and violence is not allowed in the base. The BHG would be seeing Outcasts in the same bar on the stations. The Zoners are not doing this covertly at all, its very public and they make a point of letting other know that they accept all people, even Xenos.

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[Firebird]

Actually, Koolmo we didn't violate our ID. The very first shot fired when the AW were involved was the BSG. I cruised into a fight, sat there and typed that the BSG must cease fire on all HF ships or we would open fire. The BSG nearest me turned and opened fire on me as I was sitting there, seconds after I finished typing. Then the SF and SA joined in on the BSG side and shot us as we went after the BSG. So this war is technically a matter of self-defense.

Since this is described here and is related to the discussions couple of points I'd like to make.

The incident in question occurred in Cambridge if I remember (as suggested by the pressence of SF...not sure if SA was actually on the server at that point, have to dig but it doesn't really matter).

1) I believe at this point the HF were declared hostile by the SF for previous actions by their ships.
2) Why is AW giving THREATS in a system outside their control? Or even giving threats at all if they're neutral?
3) Am I surprised by BSGs response of opening fire, not really, AW/Dab threatened to open fire on them...they obviously didn't take kindly to the threat.
4) When does self-DEFENSE extend into launching ATTACKS in the aid of the HF?

Now as to the zoner ID, the Zoner's are basically a civilian type trader or am I wrong? Zoners to be neutral they basically mind their own business and don't give a damn about anyone elses, hence why anyone is generally allowed on their stations. AW has never acted that way since for a military group it would be really boring, lol.

AW wants/needs a neutral tag since they want to take merc missions on both lawful and unlawful sides which was the original reason they went for the Zoner ID in the first place, or am I wrong?

Yes, AW doesn't claim to be Zoners but they use the Zoner ID, Zoner's neutrality, and I do believe somewhere stated they militarily support the Zoners. But I think most people here are saying is that the AW don't support the Zoners, they support themselves and their own agenda. So here's the suggestion, since AW have their own agenda which doesn't match any other affiliated rep why not use an unattached ID, I do believe a new Mercenary ID was added recently, wouldn't that be much more appropriate then the Zoner's? AW wouldn't loose Theta either since it could easily be RPed that with all the incidents and the finding of Gran Canaria that most Zoners left Omicron Theta allowing it to be taken over and run by the AW.

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[Dab]

The incidents in Cambridge, which we played a defensive part in only, even attacked as we were defending a neutral trader.. (Our reasons for staying in Cambridge, defending a trader, were apparently "Not acceptable" [their own words], shows how much they care for traders.. Did I mention that said trader was attacked by a GB and SF weren't able to stop him, the 3 AW bombers being the ones killing it?) Those sparked hostile status with SF (Why would we remain neutral after being shot 3 different times?) but not the war.

We then went to California and told BSG to stop shooting HF or we will open fire. Why you have a problem with people giving out threats in a system they don't control I have no idea.. If someone who was neutral to you went and attacked an ally of yours, you would come in and say cease your fire immediately or we will open fire. Thats what we said. Everyone does it.. Why it seems to be weird for you is beyond me..

BSG then turned and shot us, and we returned fire. SF and SA then joined the BSG as we were chasing them and shot us. After that battle, all 4 factions declared war. AW vs SA/SF/BSG. You seem to thin after that we should have stayed neutral. . . Factions ally neutral ones all the time. As I have seen, Rheinland and Bretonia are neutral to each other, but SF and RM are allied.. Heck, SF and SCRA allied for a time. And before that SF allied The Coalition, a pure terrorist organization. I allied someone who was neutral to my host faction. Nothing different from what the SF has done before. Or the SA in their alliance with Planetform. Or other factions.

Elgato hit it right on.. From what I've seen he is just about the only non-AW who actually read what I wrote. That we do not call ourselves Zoners. We work with them for mutual profit. We provide defense and stability they cannot provide themselves, and in return we get bases to use and equipment we can purchase.

Now about you complaining about self-defense turning into hostile actions.. Do you expect me to just sit there with neutrality as you shot not only our allies, but US. Of course we retaliated. Self-defense will only go so far, no matter what the organization is, if you attack them they will retaliate. Heck, if Corsairs got around to attacking Freeport 9 for the biodomes, the Zoners would surely not just sit in Theta. They would fight the Corsairs in Gamma as well. Attack their bases all around Sirius.

We don't do much merc missions anymore, so we have operations on both sides of the law, not just contracts.

We have never said we were here to fully support the Zoners. We provide defense of Theta and thats it. Your right that we have our own agenda. That doesn't mean however, that we are not doing what we said we would do for Zoners. Keep peace in Theta and discourage anyone from attacking them, or causing battles to happen throughout the system

Also, Mercenary ID does NOT fit us even as well as Zoner ID. It also only allows lawful actions, and taking over Theta from Zoners will completely ruin the RP I have been working on for over a year and a half.

I'm not throwing away 1.5 years of Role Playing stories and threads and background because some people think I shouldn't be able to use a tag and say I'm not a true Zoner. Until an admin says otherwise, its staying, and we will stay as a group connected through Zoners via trade and defense agreements.

Our role play for over 1.5 years has shown us as working with the Zoners, protecting the Zoners, and then going off on our own agendas occasionally. Conquering Theta after some Zoenrs leave (Alot are gonna stay.. Its Zoner's main base.) would not fit at all.

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[Malaclypse 666]

Now about you complaining about self-defense turning into hostile actions.. Do you expect me to just sit there with neutrality as you shot not only our allies, but US. Of course we retaliated. Self-defense will only go so far, no matter what the organization is, if you attack them they will retaliate. Heck, if Corsairs got around to attacking Freeport 9 for the biodomes, the Zoners would surely not just sit in Theta. They would fight the Corsairs in Gamma as well. Attack their bases all around Sirius.

No, we would not.

You might.

We wouldn't.

How bout we just give you Theta.

(The Zoners, that is.)

And you can have any bloody contract and ID and RP for the next ten years you like.

Just don't ever presume to speak for all Zoners again.

All contracts can be reviewed.

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