' Wrote:Iv never been a corsair but lets say for example that corsairs could sell goods in Manhatten and make lots of money from it. What your basicaly saying is that Corsairs should then be able to goto liberty as that would be there best route. Hogosha arn't a Traders group, there a Mafia style group that protects there own interests in Kusari, tax's or steals goods from forren transports, takes a cut from all sales in Kusari, etc, they don't wonder the universe trading wares(Mafia's have people to do that for them).
Hogosha are only "Semi-Lawful" inside of Kusari as they have the government under there finger. Outside of Kusari they would just be as much a pirate as any other and should be treated the same.
Outside of Kusari I think Hogosha re no different than Junkers or Smugglers. Watched with a wary eye but so long as they aren't caught or directly implicated, tolerated.
Most gaijin would have little knowledge of the difference between a Hogosha trading and a Kusari trading. Surely the government intelligence agencies would be aware of the Hogosha-Corsair relationship but no more aware of it than they are aware of the Junker-Outcast relationship.
Corsairs and Outcasts don't share this. They are a hostile group actively working against house governments with violence and mass exporting illegal goods on a huge level. Hogosha have a plausible means of role playing trade runs to Liberty--the Corsairs and Outcasts do not.
Hogosha military ships or piracy would be seen totally differently but trade is certainly possible. Unless Kusari becomes a house hostile to Liberty, the Hogosha are no more or less a threat than are Junkers in Liberty--unless their in-game behavior demonstrates otherwise.
Quote:Outside of Kusari I think Hogosha re no different than Junkers or Smugglers. Watched with a wary eye but so long as they aren't caught or directly implicated, tolerated.
Most gaijin would have little knowledge of the difference between a Hogosha trading and a Kusari trading. Surely the government intelligence agencies would be aware of the Hogosha-Corsair relationship but no more aware of it than they are aware of the Junker-Outcast relationship.
Actually, there is an issue with the Hogosha and Liberty. The Hogosha have been constantly attacking Interspace Commerce onboard Roppongi Station and while travelling via trade lanes (at the behest of Samura Industries) and Interspace is furious with Samura but cannot yet conclusively prove they're behind it. Interspace would seriously lean on the authorities to destroy any Hogosha vessels encountered within Liberty, although attacking Liberty shipping means they're probably on Liberty's hitlist anyway.
' Wrote:Outside of Kusari I think Hogosha re no different than Junkers or Smugglers.
But Junkers are only tollerated because they are useful, and proberly because they pay people off to look the other way. Hogosha don't have any infulence in Liberty, so why would Liberty tolerate them "Like the Junkers" when they don't bring anything useful to Liberty that the Junkers don't already bring. Hogosha arn't a Trading/Scavanger group eather, there a Local Mafia style group with only ties in Kusari.
I personaly don't see why a pirate group which isn't a trading group like the Junkers and which is only ever seen in Kusari based on Freelancer lore can ingore ZOI's and no other group can. If any other group which is only ever found in another House system entered Liberty space they would be asked to leave.
Faction description says Hogosha are treated like any other Keiretsu (company) in Kusari.
In real life, Yakuza have public offices and recruitment centers andd show up at corporate job fairs sometimes with their own booths.
A Kusari trader can travel to Liberty--so can a Hogosha trader. Liberty is supposedly at least a pseudo Democracy and Hogosh are not all from the same pot. Some are Order agents some Corsair facilitators, some pirates and others a lot milder.
Smugglers can enter Liberty--innocent until proven guilty. The Roppongi connection is the one good point. LN or LPI would have to issue an edict regarding Hogosha though rather than just crying "Totally OORP!". It's within reasonable rp--some just won't like it--just like some think any Junker flying anything other than a CSV has corrupted the purity of the game. Been there done that seen it already.
Having incidents in game would be a reason to ban Hogosha and one of the law factions can do that--but that's the way to handle it--not through stricter application of the rules. IC role playing pressure and influence to liberty and getting them to enact laws would be the way to stop it if you wanted. However, I can also see Kusari governmental pride being stirrred at Liberty telling them "Your citizens are not welcome here"--which is how they would hear it. Hogosha ban in Liberty is reasonable if a reciprocal ban against Junkers exists. then everyone is back in a neat non-messy uncreative box and no one is offended--even though most offended aren't playing a Hogosha.
I am actually content either way. If its the mod decision good enough. But I like the mod to dictate the baselines--not other players opinions.
The Hogosha are supposedly financed primarily by artifact sales--that is their primary in character trade item as given in their description and news back ground. The best market they can sell artifacts at is Manhattan. Go figure.
Hmm well instead of typing a book I will just quote all the stuff I agree with. Number 5 is something we should realy do Tink.
' Wrote:1. In Kusari there basicaly legal. I don't see why Liberty would stand for a mafia type organisation operating within there borders tho.
- Liberty would not want yet another mafia/criminal group in liberty. I agree.
2. Other factions have to stick within a ZIO based on the single player factions ZOI. I don't see why a faction which is only found in Kusari would have Liberty in there ZOI.
-So true. If you pick a faction with a small ZOI then too bad. If you want to fly all over Sirius be an Outcast, Zoner, BH, or Junker.
3. If the Junkers can't break through into Kursari then how would Hogosha be able to break into Junker territory especaialy when Junkers are alligned to the pirates in the area.
-I agree.
' Wrote:4. Going back a bit to Blodo's statement about the Hogosha keeping Junkers out of Kusari....if we make a server rule that Junkers can't dock in Kusari the "Hogosha" aren't really doing anything--its an artificial thing that brings no fun to either factions players.
- The Hogosha players should stop me from landing in Kusari not some made up rule. I agree.
' Wrote:5. If you really want interaction with Hogosha, Golden Chrysanthemums actually want Junkers to dock on their stations and bring them supplies. From there it makes at least some sense..
-This actualy makes the most sense. The Junkers should work as a group with the GC to infiltrate Kusari. One lone Junker landing on a Kusari planet to sell goods is not going to break the hogosha. I think the Junkers Congress should try to make a deal with the GC. Its the most fitting and least oorp method for a Junker to be in Kusari.
' Wrote:6. Hogosha are only "Semi-Lawful" inside of Kusari as they have the government under there finger. Outside of Kusari they would just be as much a pirate as any other and should be treated the same.
-Right hogosha are protected inside Kusari, outside they are just common pirates.
' Wrote:7. But Junkers are only tollerated because they are useful, and proberly because they pay people off to look the other way. Hogosha don't have any infulence in Liberty, so why would Liberty tolerate them "Like the Junkers" when they don't bring anything useful to Liberty that the Junkers don't already bring. Hogosha arn't a Trading/Scavanger group eather, there a Local Mafia style group with only ties in Kusari.
I personaly don't see why a pirate group which isn't a trading group like the Junkers and which is only ever seen in Kusari based on Freelancer lore can ingore ZOI's and no other group can. If any other group which is only ever found in another House system entered Liberty space they would be asked to leave.
Yes, Hogosha is a Mob and they can't do anything except attacking lawfuls.
Give us a break, will ya?
Their main occupation is artifact smuggling, which are, at the moment, best sold on Manhatan.
No, they are not concentrated on fighting, or else their NPC's would be Eagle's, not CSV's.
They do their work trough their connections, and fight only their enemies like Dragons, GC or Junkers.
Look, if I show up in NY as Hogosha and an LSF fella stops me for a scan and control, I will comply.
Point is, it's silly to sanction Hogosha players for being in NY, by the rules.
It's ok to settle these things in game, not with rules.
Quote:-Right hogosha are protected inside Kusari, outside they are just common pirates.
Excuse me, can we deal with the facts here? Can you give us a proof for this statement?
I can say the same for Liberty Navy. They are pirates outside of Liberty.
Yeah right.
Why do you even think that EVERYONE would know about them being a Mob?
Especially everyone outside Kusari. In Kusari it's common knowledge, but outside.. I don't think so.
As I said, stop limiting Hogosha's RP without facts.
Lucendez Wrote:
It is every Corsair's responsibility to die a beautiful death in defense of Crete, regardless of how OORP or how capwhoring the opposition is. Launch your fighter, joust the battlecruisers and die a beautiful death. Then, drink it down in the bar.
' Wrote:Yes, Hogosha is a Mob and they can't do anything except attacking lawfuls.
Give us a break, will ya?
Their main occupation is artifact smuggling, which are, at the moment, best sold on Manhatan.
No, they are not concentrated on fighting, or else their NPC's would be Eagle's, not CSV's.
They do their work trough their connections, and fight only their enemies like Dragons, GC or Junkers.
Look, if I show up in NY as Hogosha and an LSF fella stops me for a scan and control, I will comply.
Point is, it's silly to sanction Hogosha players for being in NY, by the rules.
It's ok to settle these things in game, not with rules.
Excuse me, can we deal with the facts here? Can you give us a proof for this statement?
I can say the same for Liberty Navy. They are pirates outside of Liberty.
Yeah right.
Why do you even think that EVERYONE would know about them being a Mob?
Especially everyone outside Kusari. In Kusari it's common knowledge, but outside.. I don't think so.
As I said, stop limiting Hogosha's RP without facts.
This seems directed at me so I will respond with a similiar tone.
I never said hogosha was a mob that only attacks lawfuls. In fact they mostly attack what they see as infiltrators into Kusari. So give me a break will ya.
Player hogosha are not flying in csv they flying around in gunboats, whats a gunboat for oh yeah pvp.
I never mentioned sanctioning any hogosha for entering NY. You say its fine to settle things in game in not with rules so why is there going to be a rule that Junkers cannot land on planets in Kusari? Why not let the hogosha stop us? They make there money off of smuggling artifacts into Kusari not into Liberty. They were needed by the corsairs to get the stuff into kusari. The corsairs already have the Junkers to bring their stuff into the Liberty why would a hogosha go all the way to liberty past hostile Junkers and outcasts to sell things in RP?
You want to deal with facts fine. When you kill a hogosha and get the pilot what kind of pilot do you get. Oh a pirate pilot look at that. When you kill a Junker you get a junker. Whoever created the pilots for them sees them as pirates.
I am not limiting hogosha rp anymore than people limit corsair rp by saying they cannot come into liberty. If the ZOI if hogosha has expaned I must have missed the memo.
Do i think EVERYONE would know about them being a mob? (I never said they were a mob) Hmm by everyone do me the liberty lawfuls uh yeah its there job to know. Do I mean the Junkers um yeah.
First, I never said Junkers should be forbidden by the rules to enter Kusari.
And they never were forbidden with the rules.
But yes, we did attack them whenever they entered Kusari, and I expect nothing less from Junkers when Hogosha enters their territory.
Second, whoever made pilots and infocard for Hogosha - was wrong.
Read their infocard and then read their history and you'll see it's not a match.
Quote:Player hogosha are not flying in csv they flying around in gunboats, whats a gunboat for oh yeah pvp.
Yes, there are some who fly gunboats, but not all of us.
You have to realize that Hogosha is not one big happy family. We are all doing different stuff.
Ones will trade, others will protect and help KNF, and third ones will Pirate (even though I'm strongly against any acts of piracy from Hogosha in Kusari space, we should leave that to the AFA).
You can't really say that Hogosha are not traders, because there are even traders in Hogosha.
Yes, Traders. There are smugglers, traders, warriors etc etc.
Quote:I am not limiting hogosha rp anymore than people limit corsair rp by saying they cannot come into liberty. If the ZOI if hogosha has expaned I must have missed the memo.
It's zoi is expanded by mod itself, by selling prices of artifacts.
Hogosha are MAIN smugglers of artifacts, and artifacts are best sold in Liberty.
So, whoever made it that way should know that where Artifacts go - Hogosha goes.
It's not same for Corsairs, as Corsairs are NOT Artifact smugglers, they are artifact producers.
Quote:You want to deal with facts fine. When you kill a hogosha and get the pilot what kind of pilot do you get.
Hm.. When you kill a lowlevel Molly you get a Pirate pilot.. And, guess what.
They are a nation now, not a pirate organization.
Oh, no, they must be pirates, because they drop pirate pilots.
And do not mistake my 'tone' for a harsh one. Also, I was not only answering to your posts, but to all those who are trying to submit Hogosha to their view of things, even though they never even considered playing as one.
By your view of things, if Yakuza showed up in New York (RL), he would be arrested and killed as soon as they found out he's in.
It doesn't make sense. You have to do something wrong (especially in House called Liberty) to be arrested.
I agree with Kuraine's post, because it makes sense. Yes, Interspace could try to convince the police to arrest/kill Hogosha traders.
But without that, it's pointless. I, however, do agree that some local mob would try to assassinate that Yakuza in NY (RL).
And that's why I said Junkers have every right to attack us on sight. We would do the same in Kusari.
Also.. Ever seen a Hogosha pirating in NY? No? Then they are not pirates in Liberty space.
That simple.
Lucendez Wrote:
It is every Corsair's responsibility to die a beautiful death in defense of Crete, regardless of how OORP or how capwhoring the opposition is. Launch your fighter, joust the battlecruisers and die a beautiful death. Then, drink it down in the bar.
' Wrote:Point is, it's silly to sanction Hogosha players for being in NY, by the rules.
Noone is asking for sanctions. To this date i have filed 0 sanction reports. The point of this thread is to work out if Hogosha are legaly allowed to be in Liberty space and if not can be legaly under server rules asked to leave.
Quote:Why do you even think that EVERYONE would know about them being a Mob?
Especially everyone outside Kusari. In Kusari it's common knowledge, but outside.. I don't think so.
Everyone knows the Mafia are a mob. So why wouldn't everyone know Hogosha are a mob?
Quote:It's zoi is expanded by mod itself, by selling prices of artifacts.
Hogosha are MAIN smugglers of artifacts, and artifacts are best sold in Liberty.
So, whoever made it that way should know that where Artifacts go - Hogosha goes.
It's not same for Corsairs, as Corsairs are NOT Artifact smugglers, they are artifact producers.
It doesn't matter what the prices of things are. That doesn't determin a ZOI. Lore is what determins a ZOI, based on lore Hogosha are only found in Kusari and the surrounding systems. Junkers lore wise would stop any Hogosha ships with the help of Pirates from reaching any house system thats not Kusari. They would also most likley have most of the law payed off so they would tell Hogosha to leave there space(Its well known that police in rl get payed off). Hogosha would use nutral smugglers to transport the goods into other house systems, they wouldn't risk there own ships. All good mafia/mobs/etc use nutral people to smuggle there goods into other peoples territories, that way if they get cought noone knows it was them, so they don't get any heat and they also don't loose any one of there members. Mafia/Mobs rarely would send there own people into someone elses turf.
Quote:By your view of things, if Yakuza showed up in New York (RL), he would be arrested and killed as soon as they found out he's in.
Police kill anyone related to pirate groups in Freelancer, but in real life you never kill/arest someone just because they have ties to a criminal. So your point is mute.
Quote:As I said, stop limiting Hogosha's RP without facts.
Im not out to limit peoples RP, just to see that when people pick a faction they stick to there ZOI like everyone else has to.
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