How much influence do indys have nowadays?

[Thyrzul]

It has been already made clear in this thread that the Rheinland-IC relations escalating and resulting in the ownership change of Bonn was a result of IC, RM and Admin consensus, not indies. Officials were only blamed inRP for the actions of indies because they agreed to it ooRP. The subject was rather about officials held responsible for the actions of their own indies at all times, regardless of consent, to which the example doesn't really fit, and thus have been dropped until you brought it up again.

I don't outright want more faction powers. I want equal treatment. If officials are to be blamed for indie misconduct, that means officials are expected to do something about that, thus officials are expected to have their ways to do something about that. If officials are not to be blamed for indie misconduct, then indies are, and then everybody are to face the consequences of their own actions, officials and indies alike.

The current situation is that officials are expected to face consequences for their own actions, rarely to babysit indies, and indies are often left to do what they want, without (negative) consequences. That is a separation of indies and officials, where responsibility is shared inequally between them. As a result the community "hands out" rewards just as inequally, indies are getting ignored, whether good or bad their roleplay is, and then some pro-indie folks appear to raise their voice against this, but only this, without caring about sharing responsibilities equally. And I am against that.

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[Infinitus]

It has been already made clear in this thread that the Rheinland-IC relations escalating and resulting in the ownership change of Bonn was a result of IC, RM and Admin consensus, not indies. Officials were only blamed inRP for the actions of indies because they agreed to it ooRP. The subject was rather about officials held responsible for the actions of their own indies at all times, regardless of consent, to which the example doesn't really fit, and thus have been dropped until you brought it up again.

If the example first brought forward doesn't fit, how about you bring up some fitting examples, if you wish to bang on about it?

I don't outright want more faction powers.

You and the people who agreed with you sounded very different before.

I want equal treatment.

You can easily have same treatment as indies, the very second you give up your official status. It's your choice to have official status. Want to be treated like an indy? Become and indy.

If officials are to be blamed for indie misconduct, that means officials are expected to do something about that, thus officials are expected to have their ways to do something about that. If officials are not to be blamed for indie misconduct, then indies are, and then everybody are to face the consequences of their own actions, officials and indies alike.

Hard for me to understand what you are trying to say here. You want one indy to be responsible for what nother indy does? Or what? You don't want to be held responsible for your own actions?

The current situation is that officials are expected to face consequences for their own actions, rarely to babysit indies, and indies are often left to do what they want, without (negative) consequences. That is a separation of indies and officials, where responsibility is shared inequally between them. As a result the community "hands out" rewards just as inequally, indies are getting ignored, whether good or bad their roleplay is, and then some pro-indie folks appear to raise their voice against this, but only this, without caring about sharing responsibilities equally. And I am against that.

[Thyrzul]

If the example first brought forward doesn't fit, how about you bring up some fitting examples, if you wish to bang on about it?

Council indies shooting a civilian PoB, Outcast indies bringing caps to New York... why do I have to list all these things you can see yourself in-game? Why don't you look around just a little bit? Why do I feel you don't want to?

You can easily have same treatment as indies, the very second you give up your official status. It's your choice to have official status. Want to be treated like an indy? Become and indy.

Oh, like that would solve the situation I described... Congratulations, Einstein.

Hard for me to understand what you are trying to say here. You want one indy to be responsible for what nother indy does? Or what? You don't want to be held responsible for your own actions?

What part of

everybody are to face the consequences of their own actions

don't you understand?

Concrete examples? Cause its really hard to guess what you are talking about there.

Heh, be my guest and experience it yourself, will ya?

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[Infinitus]

So from your above post, I gather that it upsets you that official factions cant bring outcast caps to NY without suffering some sort of finger pointing?

Repeating the question a 4th time...

What do you actually want?

Do you want OC indies who bring a cap to NY to get their cap nuked by admins?

Do you want all OC indies to get their caps nuked?

Do you want official factions to bring their caps to NY without getting yelled at?

Do you want official factions to get caps and the rest not?

Do you want indies to be required to follow every order of every official guy there is, no matter how non-canon lore it is, or get nuked?

Do you want all indies to be banned from the server?

Do you want all indies to fly starfliers until they join some existing official faction?

What do you WANT, exactly?

Tell what you want people to DO, so that you will stop complaining???

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[Thyrzul]

So from your above post, I gather that it upsets you that official factions cant bring outcast caps to NY without suffering some sort of finger pointing?

Couldn't be further from the truth, but I see you like barchoba, let's play then.

Do you want OC indies who bring a cap to NY to get their cap nuked by admins?

Wouldn't be bad, though I don't think such a severe punishment would be required... at first. Also, at the same time Devs could fix buffers between Alpha and Gamma, so there wouldn't only be punishments but an alternative as well.

Do you want all OC indies to get their caps nuked?

Naaaah, if they use them well, why take them away? You can't be serious, can you?

Do you want official factions to bring their caps to NY without getting yelled at?

Nope, that wouldn't make sense at all. And that's my point, to get rid of things not making sense.

Do you want official factions to get caps and the rest not?

Sounds like a valid solution to have at least the big toys under control. If players have to join official factions to have their caps, the faction can be held responsible for actions done with those caps, but at the same time can deal with issues internally. I could foresee less stupid things happening if this would become in effect.

Do you want indies to be required to follow every order of every official guy there is, no matter how non-canon lore it is, or get nuked?

Not every, nope. Most of it wouldn't be bad, as there are non-canon things which still make a lot of sense (like I'm not sure how canon the OC-Council hostility is, but I'd be glad if I'd know for sure that I could brand an indie collaborating with OCs a traitor), but to have some fairness in the whole, "control abuse" should be punished in a similar way as "pvp abuse" is. Of course only if it becomes in effect.

Do you want all indies to be banned from the server?

Are you crazy? Or trying to troll me?

Do you want all indies to fly starfliers until they join some existing official faction?

See above.

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[Jinx]

factions have more power than indies, you must be blind not to see that. there is no scaling about how much more power - but they do have more power, - period... .

organized indies can have near or almost equal power though ( a prime example is the CoZ 6 years ago, which kind of presented zoners much more than the TAZ ( the only official zoner faction then ) did )

if you argue that the power they possess is insignificant or null, you may not have realized the full potential of what impact factions "can" have. needless to say, some factions do not live up to their full power, nor do they need to - others realize most of it and clearly cause much more profound change than any indie could ever do.

however - is such power delivered on a silver platter? - no, i don t think so. - but on the same page - official factions do not have less power than indies.

they are told to adhere to the lore of the faction they represent ( so are indies ) - they are told to uphold a higher standard, be an example - now thats hardly a restriction ... leading by example should be what any indie should do, too. if they fail ( indies or official faction alike ) they are being yelled at.

they have the very same restrictions that indies have - in some cases they have more freedom in terms of equipment and shipchoice than their indies.

IF an official faction complains that they "suffer" from greater restrictions than indies - most of the time they castrate themselves and then complain. keep in mind it is a mindset of the PLAYERS to think it is an amazingly awesome idea to install ranking and restrictions to their lower members - not a pre-requisite to be an official faction. no where in the rules for faction creation it is said that "you must have a rigid ranking - disallowing certain ships and stuff to your lower ranks" THAT really is just made up.
the reason it is usually cheered at by other players who admire such a structure is their own choice. - you can be an official faction without ranking, with exactly the same freedom PLUS faction rights and other powers that any indie has.

so in short:

indies -
- must adhere to whats written on their ID
- must adhere to the lore of their chosen faction
- must not violate the rules
- can explore the grey areas of their ID
- can make up unconventional RP within the limits of their ID
- can demand lore and story changes/progression but with rather little success
- will suffer for mistakes they made or suffer from consequences usually on a personal level ( if they are an entire group that can be associated with them [unofficial faction] it can also affect this entire group )

official factions -
- must adhere to whats written on their ID
- must adhere to the lore of their chosen faction
- must not violate the rules
- can explore the grey areas of their ID
- can make up unconventional RP within the limits of their ID
- can demand lore and story changes/progression with more success
- can execute faction rights
- will suffer from mistakes they made or suffer from consequences often on a personal level, sometimes their actions have consequences for their entire faction though

official factions can do all that indies can do - are not blamed more for their actions than indies and do have a little more influence and power. is it sufficiently more influence and power? - depends on what you claim to have - or what you "think" you deserve to have.



but about the original question how much influence indies do have... that is very much down to the personalities and the way each player attempts to take influence. factions do come with a bonus for sure, but if they are led by a bland leader who knows little of how to speak to others or lacks social skills - chances are that they won t go far - while an indie with a great personality, good manners and a way to get around and speak to people will have a much easier time. - just like real life.

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Shipdesigns made for DiscoveryGC

[Thyrzul]

Now you are talking about something entirely different than what I've been arguing about earlier, I'm not sure if you intended to change the subject or trying to reflect on what I was arguing about without touching the subject. My argument was that officials have little power over indies (which would be required in case we want to hold officials responsible for the actions of indies), not that they have no power at all.

However if you already brought up the subject, I'm curious on how would you uphold the "must adhere to the lore of their chosen faction" for indies. Because nowhere in the lores of Council or Outcasts I see that the former attacks civilian installations, or the latter swarms House capitals with an armada of Battleships on part with the House Navy itself, rather the contrary of both. Can't see Corsairs being interested in Liberty and sending caps there in their lore, nor Zoners wishing to explore already charted space and colonize already inhabited planets. And yet we have these, had these. There would be a huge uproar in certain factions' feedback should this occur by official factions, but all I see from pro-indie members of the community is "ignore".

I still stay by my wish for equal treatment. If we are to grant the same influence for indies what officials have and give them the same rewards for their good deeds, then why shouldn't we expect them to be just as well responsible for their actions and face consequences equally?

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[Infinitus]

Do you want all OC indies to get their caps nuked?

Naaaah, if they use them well, why take them away? You can't be serious, can you?

...

Do you want official factions to get caps and the rest not?

Sounds like a valid solution to have at least the big toys under control. If players have to join official factions to have their caps, the faction can be held responsible for actions done with those caps, but at the same time can deal with issues internally. I could foresee less stupid things happening if this would become in effect.

See a certain discontinuity in your logic there in your two responses?

Restricting caps to official factions means exactly that very thing: taking them away from indies.

You say you want fair treatment for everyone, then you say you want to reserve ships for official factions, which is basically collective punishment of all indies for stuff that other indies did.

Jinx already said what I wanted to reply while I was reading your stuff, but I'll repeat the main point.

The restrictions that the official factions apply to themselves are THEIR OWN CHOICE. Now you come and say that the restrictions that the officials apply to themselves are unfair and should basically forcefully be applied to indies, and the officials should get to do what they wanted restricted.

Is it hypocrisy, or inability to think your suggestions through, or both?

Its really funny how the first to say that they are not willing to take any responsibility for helping or guiding indies are also the first to say they want power and advantages over them.

If OC caps docking at Rochester are the problem, why not ask that docking OC caps in liberty or bringing them there should be against the rules? Why take that as a reason to demand command authority and equipment advantages for yourself. I know. Right.

Do you want indies to be required to follow every order of every official guy there is, no matter how non-canon lore it is, or get nuked?

Not every, nope. Most of it wouldn't be bad, as there are non-canon things which still make a lot of sense (like I'm not sure how canon the OC-Council hostility is, but I'd be glad if I'd know for sure that I could brand an indie collaborating with OCs a traitor), but to have some fairness in the whole, "control abuse" should be punished in a similar way as "pvp abuse" is. Of course only if it becomes in effect.

The conditions about canon lore and restriction of command authority to 1st and 2nd in command are the very instruments that were meant to prevent "control abuse", and seems exactly that is what you want to get rid of.

Considering the opinions expressed here about not taking responsibility and getting advantages and power, I'd say that some of the people in official factions are exactly the sort of people who should not be.

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[Thyrzul]

See a certain discontinuity in your logic there in your two responses?

Restricting caps to official factions means exactly that very thing: taking them away from indies.

I used the term "if" for a reason in that line you quoted from me first, that little word is there because there isn't much to ensure they indeed use those caps for what they were intended to be used. My suggestion you quoted the second time would have been a solution to ensure that "if" disappears/turns into a "yes"/whatever.

You say you want fair treatment for everyone, then you say you want to reserve ships for official factions, which is basically collective punishment of all indies for stuff that other indies did.

Now you are mixing things. I want to reserve ships for official factions only if officials will be held responsible for the misusage of said ships. I believe it is just fair to have control over something you are held responsible for.

Jinx already said what I wanted to reply while I was reading your stuff, but I'll repeat the main point.

The restrictions that the official factions apply to themselves are THEIR OWN CHOICE. Now you come and say that the restrictions that the officials apply to themselves are unfair and should basically forcefully be applied to indies, and the officials should get to do what they wanted restricted.

Is it hypocrisy, or inability to think your suggestions through, or both?

This is complete bullcrap, lol, please tell me more about how the community expecting some sort of higher standard from official factions is a restriction said officials applying on themselves.

Its really funny how the first to say that they are not willing to take any responsibility for helping or guiding indies are also the first to say they want power and advantages over them.

Again, it seems pulling stuff out of context is a habit of you, isn't it? Or may I call it putting words into my mouth? Saying the last time, control over indies and responsibility for them, officials should have either both or neither. What is so hard in comprehending this? (Seeing the quality of your posts, I expect some basic level of comprehension of the English language from you.)

If OC caps docking at Rochester are the problem, why not ask that docking OC caps in liberty or bringing them there should be against the rules?

Well, that's not a bad idea either.

The conditions about canon lore and restriction of command authority to 1st and 2nd in command are the very instruments that were meant to prevent "control abuse", and seems exactly that is what you want to get rid of.

Sadly it prevents way more than "control abuse". I explained that too, if you still fail to understand that, I can't help you.

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[Infinitus]

See a certain discontinuity in your logic there in your two responses?

Restricting caps to official factions means exactly that very thing: taking them away from indies.

I used the term "if" for a reason in that line you quoted from me first, that little word is there because there isn't much to ensure they indeed use those caps for what they were intended to be used. My suggestion you quoted the second time would have been a solution to ensure that "if" disappears/turns into a "yes"/whatever.

When you restrict caps to official factions, you take them away from indies. Either you want that or you don't. You replied negatively when it was formulated harshly for the indies, and positively to the same thing when it was formulated nicely giving officials the caps. So you're not only unable to formulate what you actually want after the third time you're asked to do so, you're also incapable of answering consistently when offered multiple choice questions.

Now you are mixing things. I want to reserve ships for official factions only if officials will be held responsible for the misusage of said ships. I believe it is just fair to have control over something you are held responsible for.

As far as I've seen, the only people who think that officials are responsible for the "mis-use" of cap ships by indies, and thinking they have to keep them out of cap ships, are: official faction members.

I never met an indy who thought it was the official faction members job to keep him or other indies out of a cap ship.

Official factions decide what standards they want to set. Then they complain that indies aren't abiding by the standards that the officials set for themselves. Then some official guy tries to control them or screw them over as best as he can.

I'll rejoice the day that [LN] members and their unlawful alts stop sending direct or indirect "frak-you"s to every indie LN cap they see, because they feel they have the right to hate someone for flying a cap as an indy. I'll rejoice the day I can fly a nomad bomber and fight indy zoner caps again without some official zoner or official nomad or official order guy whining into my ear about how horrible indy zoners are for flying those. I'll rejoice the day I can fly on either side of the gallic conflict, or either side of any conflict, without some idiot starting the same useless and repetitive tirade about how some indy isn't behaving exactly the way that he thinks he should. And in my experience, those whining idiots are almost exclusively members of official factions, and the ones that aren't are mimicking the behavior they saw from official factions.

This is complete bullcrap, lol, please tell me more about how the community expecting some sort of higher standard from official factions is a restriction said officials applying on themselves.

First of all, they submit themselves to expectations of higher standards by wanting to be official. That's their choice, nobody asked anyone to please be official.

Second, the standards that "the community" expects are little more than the standards that the official factions have declared to be their own standards in their faction description. And "the community" that expects them to abide by those is mostly composed of members of official faction members. Ever saw an indy LN going to [LN] feedback thread to complain about their cap spam? Well if they ever did, I have the feeling that they'd only do it because the [LN] decided to declare capspam evil prior to that.

Are many of these "standards" that official factions say they abide by, or are expected to abide by, actually detrimental to fun, and doing more harm than good?

Some sure are. But those standards sure weren't put in place by indy players.

Its really funny how the first to say that they are not willing to take any responsibility for helping or guiding indies are also the first to say they want power and advantages over them.

Again, it seems pulling stuff out of context is a habit of you, isn't it? Or may I call it putting words into my mouth? Saying the last time, control over indies and responsibility for them, officials should have either both or neither. What is so hard in comprehending this? (Seeing the quality of your posts, I expect some basic level of comprehension of the English language from you.)

The problem is that you keep repeating the same stuff about how you want fair treatment, but you don't say how you exactly you want to improve things. And when presented with multiple choice questions out of desperation to know what you actually want, you fail to even answer them consistently, and your answers would actually make things the opposite of fair.

Official factions HAVE control, over the direction the diplomacy goes, over who gets their rep adjusted, the higher-ups can even give order to indies as long as they aren't in contradiction to lore. With that power of control comes the responsibility to use it properly, inseparably.

What they DONT have control over is what each and every indy player flies and does. And nobody holds the official faction accountable for what each and every indy player flies and does, except apparently you who seems to thinks that he has to control that too.

If OC caps docking at Rochester are the problem, why not ask that docking OC caps in liberty or bringing them there should be against the rules?

Well, that's not a bad idea either.

Then why aren't you lobbying for that instead?

The conditions about canon lore and restriction of command authority to 1st and 2nd in command are the very instruments that were meant to prevent "control abuse", and seems exactly that is what you want to get rid of.

Sadly it prevents way more than "control abuse". I explained that too, if you still fail to understand that, I can't help you.

It prevents people like you from ruining the fun of a great number of players by deciding everything for them. Sadly, you and a lot of other people care too little for other people's fun, and care too much about your own sense of superiority that you get from your pixelworld, to be able to understand why these restrictions to faction power are needed.

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