Admin Notice: ZOI changes for RM, BDM, BAF and BIS. (Feedback Time)

[Zelot]

How about all those who say that O3 and O7 are not "wild" read the infocards and check out the rumors?

Or will I get the answer I got in OFL then here, too, which was like: "Ok, but it just is not rped like that."?

Seems to me that after you were not able to succeed with "this will completely changed everything wrong way", you now pulled the "but holy infocards say so!" card.

Do you really demand that things should not be allowed to evolve naturally ever and should be frozen to vanilla state? Can we have same talk about other things in the game? For example about how many factions, including IMG, were described in vanilla, and how much is it different from what they are now? Either everything should be allowed to evolve, or nothing.

Seriously, this is not really big change. Sometimes lawful patrol appears, that´s how Omegas 3 and 7 are supposed to be. Or you want to claim that there should be no lawful presence at all?

Also, if you want to play your wild west, what is problem in doing it in more appropriate places? For example Omega-9 is ONE jump away from O-3 and O-7, so what´s the problem? You can be wild there all day long and no lawfuls will bother you there.

It's not about lawful a or unlawfuls, that's a meaningless distinction. The Sairs are just as much a House as Liberty it Kusari for the purposes of this discussion. That said, I guess people could go to O9 until, as you said, things evolve and the RM and BAF see that people are in O9 and decide they need to be able to patrol there too.

[Laura C.]

How about all those who say that O3 and O7 are not "wild" read the infocards and check out the rumors?

Or will I get the answer I got in OFL then here, too, which was like: "Ok, but it just is not rped like that."?

Seems to me that after you were not able to succeed with "this will completely changed everything wrong way", you now pulled the "but holy infocards say so!" card.

Do you really demand that things should not be allowed to evolve naturally ever and should be frozen to vanilla state? Can we have same talk about other things in the game? For example about how many factions, including IMG, were described in vanilla, and how much is it different from what they are now? Either everything should be allowed to evolve, or nothing.

Seriously, this is not really big change. Sometimes lawful patrol appears, that´s how Omegas 3 and 7 are supposed to be. Or you want to claim that there should be no lawful presence at all?

Also, if you want to play your wild west, what is problem in doing it in more appropriate places? For example Omega-9 is ONE jump away from O-3 and O-7, so what´s the problem? You can be wild there all day long and no lawfuls will bother you there.

It's not about lawful a or unlawfuls, that's a meaningless distinction. The Sairs are just as much a House as Liberty it Kusari for the purposes of this discussion. That said, I guess people could go to O9 until, as you said, things evolve and the RM and BAF see that people are in O9 and decide they need to be able to patrol there too.

And then it is up to admins to decide if this system should be added to their ZOI. Otherwise they can´t really patrol there because they can´t enforce laws or attack anyone first. If admins will for some reason see it fit, then we can have discussion about how "wild systems" are disappearing. But O-3 and O-7 are not that type of case and never were. In the past, when playerbase was bigger, Omega-7 actually had even stronger lawful presence than now, because lawful players were going there routinely to hunt unlawfuls.

But you still did not answer my question what is the system "without control" like (to quote you, the "places that aren't under anyone's control, places where there is no law aside from the law of the gun") and how is supposed to work.

And what is this "holy infocard" argument?
Aren't we playing a game that is based on infocards and lore?
Aren't these ingame informations that stage that we play on?

Throwing the authority of infocards and ingame information away, just because they do not "fit your idea" is a joke. I have heard this too much today to not be triggered by it. Seriously, wow.

Do you really want me to bring here all outdated infocards? Or infocards that were changed according to what was done by players (so situation when players changed the "stage that we play on")? The stage we play on can change and so can the infocards. They are not set in stone. Otherwise lets return Disco to vanilla state, that´s what you want?

---

On a ragebreak. Or ragequit. Time will tell.

[Zelot]

How about all those who say that O3 and O7 are not "wild" read the infocards and check out the rumors?

Or will I get the answer I got in OFL then here, too, which was like: "Ok, but it just is not rped like that."?

Seems to me that after you were not able to succeed with "this will completely changed everything wrong way", you now pulled the "but holy infocards say so!" card.

Do you really demand that things should not be allowed to evolve naturally ever and should be frozen to vanilla state? Can we have same talk about other things in the game? For example about how many factions, including IMG, were described in vanilla, and how much is it different from what they are now? Either everything should be allowed to evolve, or nothing.

Seriously, this is not really big change. Sometimes lawful patrol appears, that´s how Omegas 3 and 7 are supposed to be. Or you want to claim that there should be no lawful presence at all?

Also, if you want to play your wild west, what is problem in doing it in more appropriate places? For example Omega-9 is ONE jump away from O-3 and O-7, so what´s the problem? You can be wild there all day long and no lawfuls will bother you there.

It's not about lawful a or unlawfuls, that's a meaningless distinction. The Sairs are just as much a House as Liberty it Kusari for the purposes of this discussion. That said, I guess people could go to O9 until, as you said, things evolve and the RM and BAF see that people are in O9 and decide they need to be able to patrol there too.

And then it is up to admins to decide if this system should be added to their ZOI. Otherwise they can´t really patrol there because they can´t enforce laws or attack anyone first. If admins will for some reason see it fit, then we can have discussion about how "wild systems" are disappearing. But O-3 and O-7 are not that type of case and never were. In the past, when playerbase was bigger, Omega-7 actually had even stronger lawful presence than now, because lawful players were going there routinely to hunt unlawfuls.

But you still did not answer my question what is the system "without control" like (to quote you, the "places that aren't under anyone's control, places where there is no law aside from the law of the gun") and how is supposed to work.

In the past there were many systems where no house or house like entity had, rule wise the right to enforce their laws. Think Coronado before the CR set up shop there. And you know what happened? All sorts of interesting groups used it as a base to develop rp that wouldn't have been able to be done if the houses could have just hunted them back to thier base and seiged it as the common practice is now. That FL base in 13 is currently being seiged by the GMG because someone did something against thier laws, so of course, no one can now use that FL base and the opportunity is ruined.

[Jack_Henderson]

But you still did not answer my question what is the system "without control" like (to quote you, the "places that aren't under anyone's control, places where there is no law aside from the law of the gun") and how is supposed to work.

Not my quote. I think you want to discuss this one with Zelot.

The existence of outdated infocards and rumors does not allow for the deduction of "they can be ignored".

And I am not contesting that the status can change. However it changes in a very one-sided way (Houses win territory) while everybody else who needs the nieches to thrive get shafted. I just say... "Freistadt", in O7. In reality it is impossible to play IMG there because Houses roleplay o7 not like a Borderworld, but like "firmly under control".

The "logical", and "natural" spread of House power into BW kills it for others.
And telling me to "go and play in O9" is just an insult.

But sure... go on: claim everything, secure everything, make everything that was interesting disappear... so you can have your all bland, all safe systems to... be bored to death there. We are on a good way. (and "you" here is ofc not only Rabbit, but everybody telling me here that it is good to have everything under control, to have it safe and sound, etc).

Anyway, I am moving out here.
This is triggering me a lot, as it shows -for me at least- everything that is wrong with mentality in Disco that is "more more more! For me!"

---

+ IMG| DISCORD: https://discord.gg/TWrGWjp
+ IMG| IS RECRUITING: Click to find out more!

[Laura C.]

How about all those who say that O3 and O7 are not "wild" read the infocards and check out the rumors?

Or will I get the answer I got in OFL then here, too, which was like: "Ok, but it just is not rped like that."?

Seems to me that after you were not able to succeed with "this will completely changed everything wrong way", you now pulled the "but holy infocards say so!" card.

Do you really demand that things should not be allowed to evolve naturally ever and should be frozen to vanilla state? Can we have same talk about other things in the game? For example about how many factions, including IMG, were described in vanilla, and how much is it different from what they are now? Either everything should be allowed to evolve, or nothing.

Seriously, this is not really big change. Sometimes lawful patrol appears, that´s how Omegas 3 and 7 are supposed to be. Or you want to claim that there should be no lawful presence at all?

Also, if you want to play your wild west, what is problem in doing it in more appropriate places? For example Omega-9 is ONE jump away from O-3 and O-7, so what´s the problem? You can be wild there all day long and no lawfuls will bother you there.

It's not about lawful a or unlawfuls, that's a meaningless distinction. The Sairs are just as much a House as Liberty it Kusari for the purposes of this discussion. That said, I guess people could go to O9 until, as you said, things evolve and the RM and BAF see that people are in O9 and decide they need to be able to patrol there too.

And then it is up to admins to decide if this system should be added to their ZOI. Otherwise they can´t really patrol there because they can´t enforce laws or attack anyone first. If admins will for some reason see it fit, then we can have discussion about how "wild systems" are disappearing. But O-3 and O-7 are not that type of case and never were. In the past, when playerbase was bigger, Omega-7 actually had even stronger lawful presence than now, because lawful players were going there routinely to hunt unlawfuls.

But you still did not answer my question what is the system "without control" like (to quote you, the "places that aren't under anyone's control, places where there is no law aside from the law of the gun") and how is supposed to work.

In the past there were many systems where no house or house like entity had, rule wise the right to enforce their laws. Think Coronado before the CR set up shop there. And you know what happened? All sorts of interesting groups used it as a base to develop rp that wouldn't have been able to be done if the houses could have just hunted them back to thier base and seiged it as the common practice is now. That FL base in 13 is currently being seiged by the GMG because someone did something against thier laws, so of course, no one can now use that FL base and the opportunity is ruined.

What are talking about is possible only when there is system which no factions has in ZOI. And I definitely don´t think such existed even back then. I remember the old Coronado, however the sieges were not thing just because POBs did not exist back then (and sieging NPC base is kind of pointless). Because people were shooting each other there regularly and they would do the same with POBs, I am very sure about that. There will be alway someone who will come to your base and ask you for money because it´s easy money without work. This actually seems to overlooked somehow - but it is definitely part of the wild west world - lot of bad people who lives by robbing/extoring/enslaving other people. So every faction which consists of bad guys who has ZOI in some system would do that even in old times if POBs would be there. What you call "killing RP" is actually form of RP, despite sometimes brutal and with negative consequence.

Only solution of what you demand is system which will be protected from pvp interations, which will be part of no ZOI. Otherwise there will be always someone who will use the "law of the gun" against some new inhabitants and may "kill their RP".

By the way it interesting how many people blame houses aka lawfuls, but no one blames unlawful factions which has much bigger ZOI and striking a deal with them is often much more difficult and expensive than having deal with local lawfuls (just count how many POBs lawfuls destroyed in last year, and how many were destroyed by unlawfuls).

---

On a ragebreak. Or ragequit. Time will tell.

[Laura C.]

The existence of outdated infocards and rumors does not allow for the deduction of "they can be ignored".

And I am not contesting that the status can change. However it changes in a very one-sided way (Houses win territory) while everybody else who needs the nieches to thrive get shafted. I just say... "Freistadt", in O7. In reality it is impossible to play IMG there because Houses roleplay o7 not like a Borderworld, but like "firmly under control".

The "logical", and "natural" spread of House power into BW kills it for others.
And telling me to "go and play in O9" is just an insult.

But sure... go on: claim everything, secure everything, make everything that was interesting disappear... so you can have your all bland, all safe systems to... be bored to death there. We are on a good way. (and "you" here is ofc not only Rabbit, but everybody telling me here that it is good to have everything under control, to have it safe and sound, etc).

Anyway, I am moving out here.
This is triggering me a lot, as it shows -for me at least- everything that is wrong with mentality in Disco that is "more more more! For me!"

Yes, you better go away, because you are turning into drama queen again over nothing. Every time things don´t go your way, you present them like total disaster for whole Disco and label the people you disagree with detrimental to get them out of the debate. I never agreed to this when people claimed it in the past, but now I am starting to change my mind and I am getting sick of what you display here.

You still failed to explain what terrible change this will cause. That you may meet BAF patrol in O-7 or RM patrol in O-3 instead of their home system? What a disaster... This is so big change compared to meeting strictly RM just in O-7 and BAF in O-3. Otherwise NOTHING changes, the system classification stayed the same. And don´t come with that bs about strict control, Omega-7 is considered as Outer Regional Space for the christ´s sake, all what Rheinland can do there is patrol it ingame, NOTHING MORE. People can build crime nest POB there next to police station and we are forced to deal with it, so go away with that "strict control" lie.

You like to cry loud how houses kill roleplay here and there, but you never cared about roleplay which was killed by rules which you helped to introduce to get your "wild west" idea into game. Did you ever cared how intelligence factions suffered from it? How house diplomacy roleplay was sterilized to the point it barely exists? Or what nonsense situations it brought to the game, mainly in the Omega-7? Seems not, rather that you got what you wanted and that´s where it ended for you.

---

On a ragebreak. Or ragequit. Time will tell.

[Petitioner]

There should be places [...] where there is no law aside from the law of the gun.

There is no "Free Space" if you don't something in Theta the Sairs, don't like, they will roll in on you, if you do something the Order doesn't like, they will roll in on you, if you do something the GMG doesn't like, they will roll in on you. If you do something the Jellies don't like, they will roll in on you, if you do something the OC don't like, they will roll in on you. If you do something the Zoners don't like, they will roll in on you.

This sure sounds like "law of the gun" to me.

---

Recruitment | Task Force Prometheus | ICN FIRESTORM

[Zelot]

There should be places [...] where there is no law aside from the law of the gun.

There is no "Free Space" if you don't something in Theta the Sairs, don't like, they will roll in on you, if you do something the Order doesn't like, they will roll in on you, if you do something the GMG doesn't like, they will roll in on you. If you do something the Jellies don't like, they will roll in on you, if you do something the OC don't like, they will roll in on you. If you do something the Zoners don't like, they will roll in on you.

This sure sounds like "law of the gun" to me.

Yea, except you can bet if I get into a fight with the BAF or RM I will be red to them all over their house space pretty quickly. That is the law of law and jurisdiction, not the law of the gun.

[WesternPeregrine]

There should be places [...] where there is no law aside from the law of the gun.

There is no "Free Space" if you don't something in Theta the Sairs, don't like, they will roll in on you, if you do something the Order doesn't like, they will roll in on you, if you do something the GMG doesn't like, they will roll in on you. If you do something the Jellies don't like, they will roll in on you, if you do something the OC don't like, they will roll in on you. If you do something the Zoners don't like, they will roll in on you.

This sure sounds like "law of the gun" to me.

Yea, except you can bet if I get into a fight with the BAF or RM I will be red to them all over their house space pretty quickly. That is the law of law and jurisdiction, not the law of the gun.

So getting red to Hessians is ok, but getting red to Rheinland is not ok, because any faction in that house can affect the other lawful factions?
Guess there is still some power left in being a House at all, since military power is a farce these days.

---

SIGNATURE

Kusari Former Mastermind

========================

| The Kusari Legal Codex |
| Character Profiles | The North Star Bulletin News|

[Reid]

Jack, I think you're forgetting a very important fact here.

Militaries have been able to patrol in Omega 3/7 for years. Bretonia claims Omega 3 as their sovereign space and even has a colony there (thanks to irwin rip my dog). Rheinland claims Omega 7 and even has a bloody STATIONARY BATTLESHIP RFP STATION there. Can you please explain to me how this is "wild west"? 3 and 7 haven't been a "wild west" since vanilla. Hell there have been battles that dwarf anything current Disco sees in Omega-3 just because of the BAF enforcing their laws there. I get why you're upset, you think Rheinland will try locking IMG out of the comet cloud like they did the fields in 7. But with Bretonia claiming the system as their own, I doubt that's ever going to happen.

How about we live out the trial and go from there.