its a bit like pirating in a combat group - but not in the same places. we had a topic asking if it was allowed to pirate in a team with one person making a demand but not pursuing the trader, and the team-mate would ambush the trader, if he had not payed up ... at the end of the lane, without the need to ask/demand again.
the result was that it was accepted as long as both pirates were to be considered to be one group. - that means in one system and clearly recognizable as a team.
but how does it look when a warship is present at the time a trader is pirated? - i would argue that a warship is for show only, cause it cannot interfere at all. - cause what is pirating and what can the warship not interfere?
- pirating is interrupting the lane / stopping the trader ( so, the warship must not even assist in keeping the lane disrupted )
- the warship must not make a tax demand for the fighter while the fighter might dodge the traders fire; - cause the warship must not participate nor assist in pirating. - so the fighter must still do it himself in order to be within the rules.
- the warship must NOT defend the pirate when police / military heads towards the trader to assist him! - police/military assisting the trader become part of the piracy event. so even if there are 10 battleships approaching to assist the trader, the warship must not shoot at them, cause that would be - correct: taking part in the piracy event.
- furthermore, the warship must not be grouped with a pirate that is pirating. ( see the teamed example at the start ) - both ships must not be associated with each other or they become part of one and the same pirating event.
but what can a warship do then?
- a warship can, as long as its not grouped nor associated with the active pirating event, defend a position. ( maybe as a secure point to retreat to - once the pirating event is finished, but never before )
- a warship can fight lawfuls that were not assisting the trader that was pirated, but straight attacked the warship - and this is up to interpretation very much. - but when in doubt, the pirate warship must not fight back, cause the rules back up the trader and not the pirates.
so, since a warship must not participate in any pirating event from its very start to its end, anything of destroyer size or bigger is rather useless and can cause a violation to the rules when in doubt. - so i d better not have them around. - even if the pirate started all alone, and some "helpful" pirate-warship comes to aid against police that overwhelm the pirate... the warship would violate the rules if it engaged, cause the pirating event was still going on.
or in short, don t let any destroyer or bigger close to any pirating.... . - better be sure than sorry.
This is why I decided to post, instead of just reporting, because its a grey area. I didn't want to have any names named, but anyways...
The problem is, while the trader got pirated, the destroyer was attacking the LPI in the area, keeping us from helping the trader. In my view it was violating the rule, but thats my opinion.
Also according to my screenshot both the destroyer and the trader were around 1k apart at the time of the incident. Assuming I was in the dead middle, it means the destroyer could have been 2k away, still easily in weapons range, IMO.
Personally I'd suggest that noone have cruisers or bbs anywhere close to a pirating event (have them on standby maybe to cover your fighters when they flee back to base, but not withing 20k of the pirating area) Its just too risky that you might accidentally break a rule.
Since the trader himself has no obvious problems, I certainly wont be reporting, but I will be keeping an eye on this destroyer in the future...
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Quote:- pirating is interrupting the lane / stopping the trader ( so, the warship must not even assist in keeping the lane disrupted )
I've got no problems with any pirates doing that while i'm on my trader, and have done so before myself using the Drax along with the other Liberty Rogues in Liberty. I don't see any issues with disrupting the trade lanes, and don't consider it a violation of no piracy. The trader does not have to use the trade lanes, he can fire up his cruise engines. It isn't up to the pirates to be responsible for a trader's stupidity.
Quote:- the warship must not make a tax demand for the fighter while the fighter might dodge the traders fire; - cause the warship must not participate nor assist in pirating. - so the fighter must still do it himself in order to be within the rules.
Got no issues with this one, as it would be breaking the "no-piracy rule".
Quote:- the warship must NOT defend the pirate when police / military heads towards the trader to assist him! - police/military assisting the trader become part of the piracy event. so even if there are 10 battleships approaching to assist the trader, the warship must not shoot at them, cause that would be - correct: taking part in the piracy event.
Now, i've got a problem with this issue, because the lawfuls often send capital ships (cruisers/destroyers/battlecruisers etc) to intervene in piracy attempts. They have done it SO SO many times that i've frankly lost count, and isn't that contravening the "intervening in a piracy attempt" law? Since they're getting involved too. It works both ways, or not at all.
So frankly, I think both sides' escorts or caps or whatever should be able to pound the crap out of each other, but must NOT touch the trader directly. Otherwise it'll be a case of "hi mr. naval cruiser, i'm afraid neither you nor my cruiser can get involved in this piracy attempt until either the trader dies or the pirate succeeds. We can't even shoot each other as that's contravening the "interfering in a piracy attempt" server rule. It's a drag, eh?"
Never going to happen. The lawfuls are still going to send capital warships to deal with piracy attempts, and sometimes the unlawfuls will have a cruiser hanging around. Just leave it as it is, and let the escorts/attackers/defenders beat each other to a bloody pulp. But not touching the trader at all, unless in gunboat or smaller.
Quote:- furthermore, the warship must not be grouped with a pirate that is pirating. ( see the teamed example at the start ) - both ships must not be associated with each other or they become part of one and the same pirating event.
Not true, while specifically in group all members of the group in a gunboat or less are part of the piracy event, but since a cruiser cannot pirate it is automatically exempt from this rule, since it cannot be a part of the piracy event. However, there is no reason why anyone can't be grouped with them. Otherwise you'll just get a pirate cruiser hanging around the group PM'ing each other privately and not being grouped, to get around this frankly silly idea.
Quote:but what can a warship do then?
- a warship can, as long as its not grouped nor associated with the active pirating event, defend a position. ( maybe as a secure point to retreat to - once the pirating event is finished, but never before )
A good idea and one i've employed from time to time with the Rogues and other unlawful factions.
Quote:- a warship can fight lawfuls that were not assisting the trader that was pirated, but straight attacked the warship - and this is up to interpretation very much. - but when in doubt, the pirate warship must not fight back, cause the rules back up the trader and not the pirates.
I do not think this makes any sense. It has to go both ways, simply that you cannot touch the trader. Yet lawfuls are allowed to bring caps into the fray to pound on the pirate in his bomber or VHF and yet not break the "interfering in a piracy event" rule with capital ships, but if the pirates do it then its sanctionable? Retarded.
' Wrote:This is why I decided to post, instead of just reporting, because its a grey area. I didn't want to have any names named, but anyways... <-- There's nothing gray here since the one doing the pirating is the gunboat. The destroyer being nearby does not violate any rule.
The problem is, while the trader got pirated, the destroyer was attacking the LPI in the area, keeping us from helping the trader. In my view it was violating the rule, but thats my opinion. <-- DUDE ... get with reality ... so we pirates are just supposed to bow down to the LPI right? No ... if the trader can call for help ... so can the pirate. How about we have a rule that says a pirate event can ONLY be between the pirate and the trader ... thus anyone outside has to stay out? A bit OORP to say that the trader gets to call for help from the LPI and we gotta say the outlaw destroyer cannot protect the pirate.
Also according to my screenshot both the destroyer and the trader were around 1k apart at the time of the incident. Assuming I was in the dead middle, it means the destroyer could have been 2k away, still easily in weapons range, IMO. <-- Don't care where the destroyer was ... if the destroyer does not make any demands from the trader and does not open fire on the trader ... there is NO rule violation.
Personally I'd suggest that noone have cruisers or bbs anywhere close to a pirating event (have them on standby maybe to cover your fighters when they flee back to base, but not withing 20k of the pirating area) Its just too risky that you might accidentally break a rule. <-- That would have to go for all those bounty hunter battle cruisers, Liberty battleships and cruisers, etc etc etc. If we're gonna say no capships involved in the piracy event ... you gotta say NONE for either side. Otherwise you are loopholing yourself to a free ride.
Since the trader himself has no obvious problems, I certainly wont be reporting, but I will be keeping an eye on this destroyer in the future...
GEEZ ... why don't we just make piracy illegal.
Admins ... just go ahead and end it all now ... just make a rule that says nobody can pirate a trader. Make traders untouchable like those under 40. That's where we're headed. Traders absolutely refuse to role play. They look for EVERY possible rule interpretation that is in their favor. According to mb52 here, only the pirate is supposed to be in danger. Pirates have more restrictions on them than ANY other role play on this server. And the rules just continue to get translated in the trader's favor.
There's just one additional thing I'd like to say about "your opinion." [color=#FFFF00]DOUBLE STANDARD
furthermore, the warship must not be grouped with a pirate that is pirating. ( see the teamed example at the start ) - both ships must not be associated with each other or they become part of one and the same pirating event.
Not true, while specifically in group all members of the group in a gunboat or less are part of the piracy event, but since a cruiser cannot pirate it is automatically exempt from this rule, since it cannot be a part of the piracy event. However, there is no reason why anyone can't be grouped with them. Otherwise you'll just get a pirate cruiser hanging around the group PM'ing each other privately and not being grouped, to get around this frankly silly idea.
that is why i made my first example with the grouped pirates hanging out at different spots, but grouped. - if a pirate grouped with another pirate in the same system working together means that they form a single unit, - than this applies to a warship, too.
so if a pirate can make a demand, and let his buddy - back at the lane - do the killing job ( just in case ) ... - meaning the second pirate dos not need to make another demand but can actually open fire right away; - than this means that a destroyer grouped with a pirate in the same system, forming a single unit is to be considered part of the piracy, too. ( same logic for both incidents )
i do belive that a warship fending off lawfuls that would become part of the piracy event... would become part of the piracy event itself, henceforth is violating the rules, cause it must not become part of piracy.
' Wrote:Not that a cruiser is needed, if you have two or more pirates they can do better in bombers than in a gunboat and a cruiser.
True ... but while you are taking on the lawful helper ... the trader is getting away.
What you need is someone (or group of someones) to take on the BH battle cruisers (or other capships defending the trader) while the pirate in his gunboat actually pirates the trader.
I'm fine (as a trader) with a Destroyer sitting a few k away while a bomber/VHF/GB robs me blind. To have a trader go "you can't touch me" to the pirates is metagaming, powergaming and extremely ooRP. Now, if that cap vessel opens fire I am going to be pissed. my char on the other hand will probably die from fright.
And that's how it should be. Traders should fear pirates because they don't know if the pirate is going to let them sail on by or turn their ship into billions of pieces without a word. -Knowing- that the pirate has to make a demand before blowing you up is ooRP knowledge, and while we all use that knowledge from time to time it should effect ingame decisions as little as possible.
I would love to sit at a TL as a pirate and simply glare at a trader that I've brought out of the TL. Unfortunatly EVERY SINGLE one of them will either laugh at me for being "weak" or they will call out my position anyway. So few traders RP, it's sad.
Now, going back to the issue at hand; I would telll the cruiser to be VERY careful. if they shoot anywhere near the trader, that's against the rules. And I know one guy has been sanctioned (reported by me) because he was in a dessie and pulled me out of the TL. He fired on me also, but Hood said that the act of pulling me out of the TL was enough.
' Wrote:i do belive that a warship fending off lawfuls that would become part of the piracy event... would become part of the piracy event itself, henceforth is violating the rules, cause it must not become part of piracy.
convince me of the opposite =)
So then a Bounty Hunter in his battle cruiser becomes part of the piracy event by defending the trader ... here's your cake ... you wanna eat it too?
I refer to my previous statement ... DOUBLE STANDARD
And please take note of your own comment, "I do believe ..." Lets not read into the rule what is not there. The rule specifically speaks of pirates not being allowed to pirate in anything larger than a gunboat. And in order for him to be pirating he must make a demand of the trader before destroying him.
Loopholes loopholes loopholes ... thanks Jinx ... you're just contributing to the confusion.
' Wrote:GEEZ ... why don't we just make piracy illegal.
Admins ... just go ahead and end it all now ... just make a rule that says nobody can pirate a trader. Make traders untouchable like those under 40. That's where we're headed. Traders absolutely refuse to role play. They look for EVERY possible rule interpretation that is in their favor. According to mb52 here, only the pirate is supposed to be in danger. Pirates have more restrictions on them than ANY other role play on this server. And the rules just continue to get translated in the trader's favor.
There's just one additional thing I'd like to say about "your opinion."
DOUBLE STANDARD
I think some common sense is in order here. (this isnt directed at you Baltar btw - just using your post to illustrate.)
I do not want to see piracy become illegal. I think that piracy is a valuable aspect of FL.
If we restrict it too much then it becomes dead.
I think for the insane amounts that traders can make, piracy should be able to be...
let me put it this way.
I think pirates should be able to pirate in groups.
I think Big ships should be able to fire upon and interfere with a piracy.
I think the trader should be able to call in big guns, and so should the pirate...
BUT (much like some of the other threads) USE ROLEPLAY COMMON SENSE.
Can a pirate afford the big guns? From what I read in most Infocards they are not extremely rich.
Is it fair to the trader to pirate him in a BS when the trader is in a CSV?
Is there a different way to pirate other than "500k or die!" I chose to get blown up in this instance because the piracy request was totally unreasonable - didnt use common sense - and wouldve stripped me off more than half my entire life earnings - this is my first trader and he was a low level. And I logged off and didnt play for over 4 hours...during that time I had my ship towed to some base and repaired.
These issues and why there are restrictions are still because of the e-penis "biggest ship and biggest weapons" thing. It is not Roleplaying. It is PVP thinking which is where most of the problems come from and what everyone needs help in getting out of. Pirates arent roleplaying fairly. So in return the traders arent roleplaying to give them money. If the pirate in this case had said 200k that would have been ok - and I would've paid. That would have taken me about an hour and a half to recover at my current level.
Sovereign Wrote:Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.
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