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The thread sounds way too dramatic for essentially complaining about two things (battleship cerbs & heavy battleships in general).
(04-15-2017, 09:39 PM)Wesker Wrote: The reason being is simple, ever since 4.87, all the cruiser and gunboat rebalance changes (aside from the removal of cruiser razors), where terrible.
This statement alone is so wrong it makes me question if we play the same game. I hear this "cruisers are bad" meme all of a sudden although the class itself didn't receive any major changes for at least a year apart from inter-class balancing and removal of razors. Saying "they're bad" after always being a solid ship class that could fight anything and everything in any scenario is bollocks. You might argue they received a nerf with the inter balancing because old Crecy and Typhoon shenanigans are gone, but in no world are cruisers "useless". As an example - I barely played disco in the past 3 months, but just a few days ago I logged my Scylla in Omega 3 and single handedly held 2 Dunkirks alone with CD support from snubs. And no, I didn't shoot mortars only at max range, I went in the danger zone and exchanged prim fire. I survived just fine and even managed to snipe a few bombers with mortars. Only later another Vidar joined when they were dying already to finish the job. Complaining they're useless is completely unwarranted and wrong.
At 4.87, Cruisers had 2k range on prims & cerbs while battleships had ~1.8k range on secondaries. The end result was awful - cruisers sitting at max range spamming prims without taking any damage in return. It was no surprise that a lone cruiser could take down a battleship without losing its shield. With the ranges being swapped, you actually have to work for your kills. I agree, flying a cruiser has become harder, but if anything that makes it more enjoyable when you manage to win a fight because of how well you kept that ideal range and took as minimal damage as possible while dishing out your entire core and gtfo-ing in time. That in no way makes them "useless", and if anything questions how many cruiser aces we have left. "Caps require no skill" memes aside, there's a lot of small things you need to pay attention to when in a cruiser, the most notable one being keeping the perfect range between you and the target.
As for the changes they received, calling all of them "terrible" would basically say ships like the Typhoon, Scylla, Kudessie, etc. shouldn't have been changed. Stop for a second and tell me you're joking. Inter-class balancing doesn't change the way that class acts against other classes, period. Feel free to look at the list of cruiser changes and tell me if "all of them are terrible" again. Pretty surprising, after receiving so much positive feedback about the changes in general. Hell, I even remember going through the list with you on skype and you nodding your head or if you didn't, I explained everything in detail to you, just to see you suddenly change your opinion.
Gunboats received a lot of changes, but again - saying "all of them were terrible" is not only disrespectful to the people doing them, but also flat out wrong and you know it. Apart from inter-class balancing (which, again, doesn't change the way they fight other classes), they got their guns & shield changed a lot. Perhaps the cerberus nerf was too much given that it has double the dispersion now, but from what I've heard they're getting buffed anyways. Shield nerf/separation into 3 classes was long overdue, and there shouldn't be any surprises about that. The prims not taking any core were balanced properly and if anything it enabled you to mount two extra razors or pulses and get away with it because of the DPS buff they received, while not draining the core too much (example - 4 prims 2 pulses before and 4 prims 2 pulses now, you're better off with the latter because of the extra damage, while 4 prims don't drain the core that much as 6 prims would). The core of gunboats is still unchanged. They're still undisputably the most versatile class in the game.
Now for a bit less of a rant post. Battleships were very close to getting a major update regarding unique weapons which'd not only make them a lot more appealing (the beautiful effects from @Titan) but also buff heavier ones. Couple that with the cerb buff, and you'd have a whole new mechanic of battleship fights. Sadly, Titan retracted the whole concept and didn't want it in the game, so it wasn't implemented. Couple that with balance team being a mess it is, it's clear why it's not in. It's a shame really, because it's all here waiting for someone to put it in. @Durandal, the reason why people want the cerbs back is simple - they realise how bad heavy battleships are at the moment (arguably the worst subclass in the game) and are looking for ways to make them stronger. What comes to mind first? Things that already existed and people got familiar with them and/or are very easy to implement and play around with. What fits both criterias? 3.5k range cerbs. There's no real disadvantage to bringing them back at this point, and they can always be reverted since the change literally takes 5 minutes. Putting house cerbs in would also help.
Another thing that was well mentioned was missiles. What doesn't care about the battleship size/manouverability? Missiles and beams. The latter is probably never getting in because of how it'd interact with smaller classes (3000 m/s guns vs snubs), but the former has a lot of potential. Vertical missile was already one of the new unique battleship weapons that were supposed to be implemented, but I wouldn't mind seeing all the missiles reworked to be very good. After all, they can always be CMed or CDed and sometimes flaked away, so they'd have to be -very- good, and it'd be a buff to heavy battleships since the projectile itself doesn't care about how big or small you are (within the battleship class), while they can take a lot more pure damage.
Tl;dr Yes, buff heavy battleships (via bringing old cerbs back as one of the options), but don't talk nonsense about cruisers and gunboats.
I'd be in for increasing the explosion radius of Battleship Missiles, simply because if you hit the rear of a more lenghty ship, it doesn't deal any damage. For example the Dunkirk, as I see it every time when throwing Yalalalas at them.
It's a shame its probably too late to implement analytics into the FLHook that would allow us stop throwing opinions and instead start talking real data.
(04-16-2017, 12:40 PM)Sombra Hookier Wrote: I'd be in for increasing the explosion radius of Battleship Missiles, simply because if you hit the rear of a more lenghty ship, it doesn't deal any damage. For example the Dunkirk, as I see it every time when throwing Yalalalas at them.
That's vanilla vulnerability, and its going away real soon.
It's probably been stated dozens of times that Battleships should be able to essentially ignore fighters, gunboats, and to an extent, bombers in combat, while also being unable to effectively deal with them on their own.
Limiting them to a handful of missiles severely damaged their ability to combat each other at very long range, as well as having a go-to tool for dealing with kiting and heavy cruisers. The splitting way back also butchered their ability to actually kill anything that wasn't another battleship. So we're halfway there. They can't effectively kill anything smaller than them, but they're still just explosive pinatas to everything else.
What they need is to be heavy ordinance, and to be able to fill the field between them and other battleships with crossfire that makes a no-mans land.
Despite the severely reduced population however, I'm afraid that'll still be a no go for performance sakes.
(04-16-2017, 12:15 PM)Antonio Wrote: The thread sounds way too dramatic for essentially complaining about two things (battleship cerbs & heavy battleships in general).
(04-15-2017, 09:39 PM)Wesker Wrote: The reason being is simple, ever since 4.87, all the cruiser and gunboat rebalance changes (aside from the removal of cruiser razors), where terrible.
This statement alone is so wrong it makes me question if we play the same game. I hear this "cruisers are bad" meme all of a sudden although the class itself didn't receive any major changes for at least a year apart from inter-class balancing and removal of razors. Saying "they're bad" after always being a solid ship class that could fight anything and everything in any scenario is bollocks. You might argue they received a nerf with the inter balancing because old Crecy and Typhoon shenanigans are gone, but in no world are cruisers "useless". As an example - I barely played disco in the past 3 months, but just a few days ago I logged my Scylla in Omega 3 and single handedly held 2 Dunkirks alone with CD support from snubs. And no, I didn't shoot mortars only at max range, I went in the danger zone and exchanged prim fire. I survived just fine and even managed to snipe a few bombers with mortars. Only later another Vidar joined when they were dying already to finish the job. Complaining they're useless is completely unwarranted and wrong.
At 4.87, Cruisers had 2k range on prims & cerbs while battleships had ~1.8k range on secondaries. The end result was awful - cruisers sitting at max range spamming prims without taking any damage in return. It was no surprise that a lone cruiser could take down a battleship without losing its shield. With the ranges being swapped, you actually have to work for your kills. I agree, flying a cruiser has become harder, but if anything that makes it more enjoyable when you manage to win a fight because of how well you kept that ideal range and took as minimal damage as possible while dishing out your entire core and Ferrari-ing in time. That in no way makes them "useless", and if anything questions how many cruiser aces we have left. "Caps require no skill" memes aside, there's a lot of small things you need to pay attention to when in a cruiser, the most notable one being keeping the perfect range between you and the target.
As for the changes they received, calling all of them "terrible" would basically say ships like the Typhoon, Scylla, Kudessie, etc. shouldn't have been changed. Stop for a second and tell me you're joking. Inter-class balancing doesn't change the way that class acts against other classes, period. Feel free to look at the list of cruiser changes and tell me if "all of them are terrible" again. Pretty surprising, after receiving so much positive feedback about the changes in general. Hell, I even remember going through the list with you on skype and you nodding your head or if you didn't, I explained everything in detail to you, just to see you suddenly change your opinion.
Gunboats received a lot of changes, but again - saying "all of them were terrible" is not only disrespectful to the people doing them, but also flat out wrong and you know it. Apart from inter-class balancing (which, again, doesn't change the way they fight other classes), they got their guns & shield changed a lot. Perhaps the cerberus nerf was too much given that it has double the dispersion now, but from what I've heard they're getting buffed anyways. Shield nerf/separation into 3 classes was long overdue, and there shouldn't be any surprises about that. The prims not taking any core were balanced properly and if anything it enabled you to mount two extra razors or pulses and get away with it because of the DPS buff they received, while not draining the core too much (example - 4 prims 2 pulses before and 4 prims 2 pulses now, you're better off with the latter because of the extra damage, while 4 prims don't drain the core that much as 6 prims would). The core of gunboats is still unchanged. They're still undisputably the most versatile class in the game.
Now for a bit less of a rant post. Battleships were very close to getting a major update regarding unique weapons which'd not only make them a lot more appealing (the beautiful effects from @Titan) but also buff heavier ones. Couple that with the cerb buff, and you'd have a whole new mechanic of battleship fights. Sadly, Titan retracted the whole concept and didn't want it in the game, so it wasn't implemented. Couple that with balance team being a mess it is, it's clear why it's not in. It's a shame really, because it's all here waiting for someone to put it in. @Durandal, the reason why people want the cerbs back is simple - they realise how bad heavy battleships are at the moment (arguably the worst subclass in the game) and are looking for ways to make them stronger. What comes to mind first? Things that already existed and people got familiar with them and/or are very easy to implement and play around with. What fits both criterias? 3.5k range cerbs. There's no real disadvantage to bringing them back at this point, and they can always be reverted since the change literally takes 5 minutes. Putting house cerbs in would also help.
Another thing that was well mentioned was missiles. What doesn't care about the battleship size/manouverability? Missiles and beams. The latter is probably never getting in because of how it'd interact with smaller classes (3000 m/s guns vs snubs), but the former has a lot of potential. Vertical missile was already one of the new unique battleship weapons that were supposed to be implemented, but I wouldn't mind seeing all the missiles reworked to be very good. After all, they can always be CMed or CDed and sometimes flaked away, so they'd have to be -very- good, and it'd be a buff to heavy battleships since the projectile itself doesn't care about how big or small you are (within the battleship class), while they can take a lot more pure damage.
Tl;dr Yes, buff heavy battleships (via bringing old cerbs back as one of the options), but don't talk nonsense about cruisers and gunboats.
I am fine with part of Capital changes that balanced them in they own classes , as well for BS loosing bits for hull buff .
What i do care is BS loose/got heavily nerfed mayor weapons like Cerberus and Missiles , as well as flak power double nerf and energy consumption increased , and they are stuck with mortars and prims only ( basics prims nerfed as well ) , which for large ones is death sentence . 5 nerfs for one ship class, is not not much ?
Cruisers are fine by their stats , but they lose razors , only thing that have small chance to get rid of pesky snub ( and to snac funboats to ) , now none of capitals have not a single weapon against snubs , while bombers not only still has deadly long range novas and snacs , to safely range kill all , they also get new toys .
I'm fine with battleships as they are. I wouldn't really mind reverting Cerberus range to 3.5K. I don't think that it would change the situation notably, except that it would make battleship combat even shorter and POB sieges easier. I would definitely love to see House Cerberuses, though.
PS: And yes, some heavy battleships need a buff. The Valor, the Redemption, the Tokugawa and the Marduk are fine. Others, although they are somewhat capable of winning against a lighter battleship, can do nothing against a cruiser that has a light mortar. They can be hit from maximum range, and they can't hit back. A BIsmarck, for example, is quite fun to fly against other battleships as it is a challenge, a manageable one though, but I replaced mine with an Elbe because it was useless against such cruisers.
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