Rescaling the Kusari Destroyer

[tansytansey]

I like consistency.
I don't like retconning ships like this.
Balance it in another way instead of changing it's size in a completely silly and OOC way.

Rip off a gun, hurt it's power core.

Just don't solve it by smashing any sort of continuity.

Consistancy is a fickle thing. It's just like replacing an import, in-RP the ship always looked that way. There are some exceptions like the OC Cruiser and Lunchbox which are RPed as having production discontinued in favour of a better ship model, or the Greyhound which is RPed as recieving a significant upgrade.

It's only OORP if you make it.

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|Ashes and Draya's Epic Adventure|Ashes "Nighthawk" Yotaka|Nightfall|Eva Jones|
[5:50:49 PM] JakeSG (William Darkmoor) says: I like you, Ashes. You're more cynical than God.

[Exsiled_one]

I'm not for this change, and I don't even consider myself a fan of capital ships.

I am not fan of this change because it was attempted few times before and it seems that now when everyone is getting everything this is trying to be pushed as well.

Can someone actually give me an example of an situation where few Kusari dessies actually did so much damage that it overshadowed other problems we have in Discovery?

If not, then I would like it to remain the same until we clear some other more difficult situations.

for what is more troubling than this questions, well, I find the current rules under discussion more troubling, I find independent players claiming the roles of fleet admirals more troubling and I find lack of official Bretonia factions (Planetform / Gaians) troubling.


While it is easy to say "Go with it" or "scale it, it hurts me so bad" I find that the real change starts from acting on something actually. So if someone feels that this is the biggest problem Discovery fl. has to offer, than I say fine, go vote. but I feel there's ****load more stuff to do before we come to toning down a ship that has "this small vessel" in it's description.


why do we want to change something? because this is a mod? :/
Change for sake of change is useless. Change must come with a purpose

- Ordo Dracul, VTR.

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<span style="color:#33CC00">I AM GIVING AWAY MONEY TO CREATIVE MINDS*</span>

[mjolnir]

QUOTE(pipboy @ May 8 2010, 12:58 AM) *

The Kusari destroyer is in no way overpowered.
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You're right, it's not. But that is not the issue here, the issue is the Kusari Destroyer is halting progress, holding back all the rest of the Cruisers. If they recieve any sort of buff, the Kusari Destoyer becomes and uberpwn ship.
Incorrect. Check first post for size comparisons.

The Kusari destroyer in current form (very small but with limited arcs) is not halting any "progress" for the rest of the cruisers.

With just one heavy slot that won't fire back (4.86 heavy slot), it can't hurt any ship bigger than a fighter when firing backwards.
At the same time when solaris are used on it, they still are limited with the firing arcs and turning.


The BHG destroyer is about 1.6x bigger in overall size than Kusari destroyer, but the front/rear profile itself is not that much bigger, while as mentioned it has 8 turrets firing backwards.

BHG destroyer with 2 razors and 6 solaris is what limits how good solaris/razors on cruisers can be now [, because it has no obvious disadvantage that a group of ships can use against it.
That said there are other cruisers that have a front profile very close to BHG Dessie and have even bigger powerplant and armor (OC Dessie, Rheinland Cruiser). So the cruiser solaris are basically at the top of what is possible with many current cruisers. Razor is getting some upgrade due to the new slot limitations, but as Kusari dessie was going to have just 1 slot that fires only forward, it's again not the limiting factor.



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1. The destroyer is balanced in current form

- Dies to 1 bomber and 1 fighter most of the time.
- Dies to Bretonian Destroyer 1vs1
- Can't hurt a BS alone
- Is impossible to defeat with 1 GB (just like any other cruiser with normal pilot)

2. It doesn't limit guns for any other cruiser (given 4.86 heavy slots)


Various other ships of small profile and good arcs set the limit instead (BHG Dessie, OC Dessie, Rheinland Cruiser)

=> There's no "need" to upscale it.

===============================================

What needs to be addressed if it would be upscaled:

1. Would the rescaled vanilla hitbox work for the different parts of the ship?

2. Would the texture work?

I do not know answers to these. Texture ought to work, hitbox.. impossible to say without testing.

Balance-wise following changes would be needed:

- Adding the 2 vanilla turrets which are currently disabled on it. These both fire back, 1 of them also forward. => That will make it have 10 guns forward 4 back

- it will be re-assigned to 2 heavy 360 degree slots (like BHG Dessie)

- turning will be decreased but will be still slightly better than BHG Dessie


=> Result would be a ship close to BHG Dessie in performance at the cost of some variety in the mod.
I'm not really fan of that, just like I don't like adding 6th gun on Wrath, removing 7th gun (turret) from Sabre, rescaling Werewolf or giving Corsairs a fast turning VHF to name just a few proposals that aim to change ships to achieve more uniform performance.

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Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.

[Curios]

@McNeo

oh, i don't coping Ench, i'm coping someone else.

And about rescaling. I think all arguments are told because:

Argument to rescale: ridiculous size.

Argument against: delicate balance of listed above advantages and disadvantages making this cruiser good as it is. If changes will be performed it will force to balance and change all other stats that will lead us to unbalance (underpower\overpower) with a big chance.

Result: No changes please because there is no real need in them to do that big amount of work.

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[tansytansey]

What needs to be addressed if it would be upscaled:

1. Would the rescaled vanilla hitbox work for the different parts of the ship?

2. Would the texture work?

Yes and yes. At this point it looks like FLModelTool is not going to let me do it the easy way, but provided I keep the mesh names identicle to the Vanilla names when exporting the new CMP the current hit box will work, it will only need to be scaled accordingly which can be done in FLModelTool.

As for balance, that's not my concern. I understand that changing the size of the Destroyer means it will need to have it's balance altered, but how it is altered I'm not concerned with.

You call the Destroyer Unique, I call it a Gunboat with Cruiser tech.



@Curios: Using an 'eject' picture generally means you're leaving a thread and not posting again. Otherwise you're pulling a Goose.

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|Ashes and Draya's Epic Adventure|Ashes &quot;Nighthawk&quot; Yotaka|Nightfall|Eva Jones|
[5:50:49 PM] JakeSG (William Darkmoor) says: I like you, Ashes. You're more cynical than God.

[Sprolf]

...just like I don't like adding 6th gun on Wrath, removing 7th gun (turret) from Sabre, rescaling Werewolf or giving Corsairs a fast turning VHF to name just a few proposals that aim to change ships to achieve more uniform performance.

Difference:
Those are all acceptable deviations that make things interesting between factions..

The Kusari Destroyer goes way past that that.

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[Linkus]

I've a solution!

Accept that it's more powerful than other cruisers!

I know, shocking.


What exactly is wrong with Kusari having the 'best' cruiser ingame?
I mean, Liberty has the best Battleship apparantly.
Yet..who's complaining about the Dreadnaught's obvious advantages over the Rheinland Battleship?

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Facilitating the rise of robotics since 0 A.D.

[tansytansey]

I'm not for this change, and I don't even consider myself a fan of capital ships.

I am not fan of this change because it was attempted few times before and it seems that now when everyone is getting everything this is trying to be pushed as well.

Can someone actually give me an example of an situation where few Kusari dessies actually did so much damage that it overshadowed other problems we have in Discovery?

If not, then I would like it to remain the same until we clear some other more difficult situations.

for what is more troubling than this questions, well, I find the current rules under discussion more troubling, I find independent players claiming the roles of fleet admirals more troubling and I find lack of official Bretonia factions (Planetform / Gaians) troubling.
While it is easy to say "Go with it" or "scale it, it hurts me so bad" I find that the real change starts from acting on something actually. So if someone feels that this is the biggest problem Discovery fl. has to offer, than I say fine, go vote. but I feel there's ****load more stuff to do before we come to toning down a ship that has "this small vessel" in it's description.
why do we want to change something? because this is a mod? :/
Change for sake of change is useless. Change must come with a purpose

- Ordo Dracul, VTR.

Your only argument is that because there are bigger problems that nothing should be done? That's hardly an excuse. I for one have opted to take on all of the work load, I am not expecting any one else to help me or do it for me. Whether it is of high priority or not is no concern, I'm not a member of the Dev team, I have no other modding obligations. I'm free to deligate my time as I wish. The 'important' people are taking care of the more important things. I'm just a grunt who does all the small things. And quite often you'll find it's the small things that no one considered would matter that make all the difference. Compare 3D animation today with 3D animation 5 years ago. The difference? People started doing the small things no one thought any one would notice or weren't important.

I've a solution!

Accept that it's more powerful than other cruisers!

I know, shocking.
What exactly is wrong with Kusari having the 'best' cruiser ingame?
I mean, Liberty has the best Battleship apparantly.
Yet..who's complaining about the Dreadnaught's obvious advantages over the Rheinland Battleship?

Liberty's Battleship isn't the size of a Cruiser. I'm not concerned whether or not the Kusari Dessie is better than any other ship, personally I don't think it is the best Crusier in the mod. All I know is, it's far too small.

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http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv46/Ni...gcloudscopy.png
Image turned into a URL because it made your sig too tall. -Zuke
|Ashes and Draya's Epic Adventure|Ashes &quot;Nighthawk&quot; Yotaka|Nightfall|Eva Jones|
[5:50:49 PM] JakeSG (William Darkmoor) says: I like you, Ashes. You're more cynical than God.

[mjolnir]

I don't see any reason to respond to "it's so wrong" and "look at the size" posts.

Currently the ship is balanced and it doesn't limit other things.

Arguments for resizing are:
1. strange size vs some ships

If you however compare Kusari GB vs Kusari Dessie and Bret Dessie vs Bret GB the difference is not that big.

Arguments against resizing:
1.it's vanilla and changing it would lower diversity
2. it would need rebalancing,
(3. it needs to be tested)






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Yes and yes. At this point it looks like FLModelTool is not going to let me do it the easy way, but provided I keep the mesh names identicle to the Vanilla names when exporting the new CMP the current hit box will work, it will only need to be scaled accordingly which can be done in FLModelTool.

Yes I know HOW to do that, I do no know what happens when the hitbox really gets tested, past experiences make me cautious.

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Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.

[Sprolf]

Oops, Martin!

That was a Strawman. Logical fallacy.




Please try again.

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