what needs to be defined is "what is piracy?" then. is piracy only collecting the cash from a trader? - is it the act of threatening the trader to shoot him down? or is it maybe only the act of shooting him down. does piracy start when the demand is made? or does it start once the trader has been stopped. are escorts part of piracy? are incoming units supporting the trader part of the piracy?
i do not think its about loopholes here. - its a suggestion/advice for those that plan to take part in a pirating event in something bigger than a gunboat. - it is in the eye of the beholder what is actually the act of piracy. - and when in doubt, i don t believe its the trader who ll take the blame, but the warship captain.
the point is. the warship captain will activly meddle with the event, - while the trader will passivly react. - the trader does not force the piracy event to progress - its the pirate who will initiate and keep the event running. if a cruiser interferes there, the cruiser captain will do it cause he chooses to. ( if escorts do actually attack the cruiser and take its shields down by 50% or more, the self defense rule applies ) - but if the cruiser itself remains untouched, he should not take part in the event.
while many of your said that "you don t mind" - you may allways meet a trader who does mind. and then, the rules will rahter punish the pirate cause - like i said, he activly chooses to interfere.
the trader and piracy rules are quite clear. - they state "no act of piracy in anything bigger than a gunboat" - loopholing is to try to make warships part of the piracy ( an utterly unnecessary wish as it is not needed for pirating )
we allready stated that warships are pretty precious - and when used for such a lowly act of simple piracy, they are wasted resources. - while the rules and the relative trader safety may be considered metagaming, the use of warships for piracy may be considered ooRP. ( and i yet have to see the hardes of BHGs rush towards the pirate to take it down )
i do not have a trader, btw. and i have a pirate ( bomber ). only once time i had a cruiser attack head up to me while i was pirating ( in leeds ) ... i retreated at that point. - thats what a pirate is supposed to do when facing such an overwhelming enemy. the gaians do not have the resources to deploy even a gunboat - sort of ( farmers don t have gunboats and the corsairs are quite reluctant to give one to the gaians ). i claim to be quite successful as a pirate - cause when i pirate, i pirate and i don t fight those that want to attack me ( or only if i am left no chance ) - i m not after pvp, - the most successful piracy is one that does not involve any weaponfire.
i really don t know where you allways get the dozens of warships chasing a fighter. - but my guess is somewhere in liberty, cause it never happened to me in bretonia.
ps.: the term "i believe.." means that i don t claim my opinion to be right. - it marks my opinion on this matter - and you can either be convinced by my arguments or not, - i don t really care much about what you decide on. but when i am the pirate, i will NOT tolerate a destroyer or bigger to interfere with my piracy. if you do, its your decission.
' Wrote:I think some common sense is in order here. (this isnt directed at you Baltar btw - just using your post to illustrate.)
I do not want to see piracy become illegal. I think that piracy is a valuable aspect of FL.
If we restrict it too much then it becomes dead.
I think for the insane amounts that traders can make, piracy should be able to be...
let me put it this way.
I think pirates should be able to pirate in groups.
I think Big ships should be able to fire upon and interfere with a piracy.
I think the trader should be able to call in big guns, and so should the pirate...
BUT (much like some of the other threads) USE ROLEPLAY COMMON SENSE. <-- There is no role play common sense. Traders do not role play ... simple as that. They don't call the "big guns" to protect them for role play reasons. They do it to protect the money they make to buy their own battle cruisers.
Can a pirate afford the big guns? From what I read in most Infocards they are not extremely rich. <-- Nobody is saying pirates should pirate in anything larger than a gunboat. The ONLY thing I'm arguing about is for the pirate to be allowed to hire his own escorts to protect him while he pirates. I don't see ANY rules limiting the bounty hunters in the size of their vessels.
Is it fair to the trader to pirate him in a BS when the trader is in a CSV? <-- Never seen anyone flying a CSV and conducting much trading ... usually these are new traders that haven't yet upgraded to the container transport. But let me turn the question back at you. Is it fair for the pirate in his limited gunboat to have to check 6 for the battle cruiser capwhores? Really ... how many bounty hunters can really afford such a thing. Last I heard they were for use in the war against the Order. But like traders ... bounty hunters don't role play ... they just use the loophole advantage to PVP to death a pirate who is not allowed to be in anything bigger than a gunboat. So ... why don't we take your comparison in to account ... bounty hunter in gunboat vs pirate in CSV. Not really much competition there.
Is there a different way to pirate other than "500k or die!" (I don't say 500k or die ... try again) I chose to get blown up in this instance because the piracy request was totally unreasonable - didnt use common sense - and wouldve stripped me off more than half my entire life earnings - this is my first trader and he was a low level. And I logged off and didnt play for over 4 hours...during that time I had my ship towed to some base and repaired. <-- 500k ... by the way ... is less than what traders pay for their cargo. Average full load of cargo is usually 750k to 2 mil (just to purchase) and then sell for 6 mil to 10 mil at the other end. So there's really no dent in your profit. Oh ... and the trader preferring to die? Yeah ... that's good role play ... NOT.
These issues and why there are restrictions are still because of the e-penis "biggest ship and biggest weapons" thing. It is not Roleplaying. It is PVP thinking which is where most of the problems come from and what everyone needs help in getting out of. Pirates arent roleplaying fairly. So in return the traders arent roleplaying to give them money. If the pirate in this case had said 200k that would have been ok - and I would've paid. That would have taken me about an hour and a half to recover at my current level. <-- Oh my ... a pirate demanding 500k is unfair. He makes 10 mil (minimum) on a round trip and he's worried about paying a pirate 500k. And the whole issue here is not about pirates wanting big ships to pirate in. The issue here is that pirates cannot defend themselves against these capwhores you call escorts. I'd like to see a rule that says escorts of traders cannot be larger than ... lets say ... cruisers or destroyers. Its poor role play for a small transport like a Firefly to be expected to afford to pay a battle cruiser to escort him around. He may be a rich trader ... but he doesn't have that much money.
Here's the solution. Lawfuls in their capships have FORCED pirates to require support of their own. You've heard of escalation right? Its where we get into a fist fight ... you pull out a knife ... I pull out a gun ... you get a friend with a gun ... i get two friends with rifles ... you bring a fighter ... I get a gunboat ... you get a cruiser ... I get a battleship ... you grab a battle cruiser ... where does it end? How about keeping piracy to a lower level (on BOTH sides).
I don't mind the bounty hunters coming after me ... but they shouldn't be way over classing a single pirate. Its overkill and it destroys game play. Sigma 13 is a remote system and is the most heavily traveled system by traders ... who are way OORP to be using the jump holes there. If you want role play ... these traders need to stick to the trade lanes. Its safer and less likely to be pirated.
I think the rules on everything need to be looked at quite extensively so that there are no loopholes. Mark it in stone then let us move the stone to where we need it later.
I'm tired of all the rule lawyering both in and out of game. (This isn't against you Jinx, I think you have made some very good points and posts and...everything that yo upost about.)
We need to make it so that no-one who has read the rules can interpret them in any other way.
I would also suggest that we try to word it in a positive way rather that THOU SHALT NOT...
Edit:Actually I just read the rules again. They seem pretty well written. I dont understand why people arent following them.
Sovereign Wrote:Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.
Jinx ... you're going beyond the scope of the rules we must abide by. Role play is an art more than a science. But since we have these artificial limitations place ONLY on pirates ... we have to play by those rules. So what we get is a pirate in a gunboat trying to defend himself from 2+ battle cruisers. Where's the realism and role play in that?
Oh nevermind ... pirate characters don't last long anyway. Once people realize how utterly impossible it is (because of the rules and lack of role playing traders) they usually give it up and start trading themselves.
Baltar you havent read what ive written. I also have a pirate char so I know what your talking about as well.
This was the situation.
I was in my CSV. I was a new trader.
I was pirated for "500k or die."
I never had a chance. I died and logged off.
I am NOT LOOPHOLING. I DEFENDED THE PIRATE AGAINST THE PEOPLE
WHO WANTED TO SANCTION HIM! for crying out loud.
I am saying that the pirates need to stepup up their RP AS WELL AS EVERYONE ELSE.
What is lacking on this RP server is RP.
Sovereign Wrote:Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.
like i said - have it your way. personally, i don t mind if you as a pirate are sitting at a lane that is interrupted by a battleship - while another battleship makes the tax demand. it is your way - and if you are indeed charged by half a dozen BHG battlecruisers, you can try to explain yourself if the trader feels like it was treated unjust after all. ( you are then at the very mercy of the traders point of view - if he thinks that disrupting the lane and making a demand was an act of piracy or not )
so it doesn t matter how much i consider roleplay an art or how i play by the rules. - cause i know that i won t get sanctioned, cause i won t tolerate that stuff. - it is only about what you are doing.
on that matter: my pirate char is quite old and i still have lots of fun. - all without any warship support - but of course, bombers are overpowered - i might try to pirate in a VHF another day.
' Wrote:I think the rules on everything need to be looked at quite extensively so that there are no loopholes. Mark it in stone then let us move the stone to where we need it later.
I'm tired of all the rule lawyering both in and out of game. (This isn't against you Jinx, I think you have made some very good points and posts and...everything that yo upost about.)
We need to make it so that no-one who has read the rules can interpret them in any other way.
I would also suggest that we try to word it in a positive way rather that THOU SHALT NOT...
Edit:Actually I just read the rules again. They seem pretty well written. I dont understand why people arent following them.
We gotta take a look at the reason the rule was made to begin with. The gunboat limit for pirates was not created because of role play. That rule exists because anything bigger is overkill and smacks of PVP.
And I doubt anyone considered the possibility that traders would call on protection from battle cruisers while they are being pirated.
What I'd like to see is a similar limitation on those that hunt pirates. If a pirate cannot "pirate" in anything larger than a gunboat ... to be consistent in the rules ... there needs to be a limit on a bounty hunter "hunting" pirates. I do NOT advocate allowing pirates to "pirate" in anything larger than a gunboat ... I only want to put the bounty hunters on the same playing field as the pirate. Limit the bounty hunter to a destroyer or a cruiser (not battle cruiser ... but a cruiser) while he "hunts" pirates.
This has as much to do with enjoyment of the game as it does with role play. After all, rules are made to level the playing field for enjoyment by all. Rules are not intended to give one side an advantage over the other.
the RP reason not to pirate in bigger ships than gunboats is - surprisingly the same reason why it is considered "bad manners" to hunt for a bounty in anything bigger than a gunboat. - that is... if you pirate a trader for 500.000 $ ... that hardly makes up for the running costs of such a ship ( fuel/mox, crew, food, water, oxigen, etc. ) - so what would a cruiser do.... pirate for 5 million with the reason that he has to make a living?
piracy is not warfar, its an act that is best done in the shades - away from the watchful eyes of the lawfuls. so a bomber or a fighter is much easier to hide with, to ambush others etc. ( a gunboat is actually a compromise made in favour of the pirates ) - it is assumed that a gunboats crew is small enough to justify piracy ... still.
unfair you say?....
lets look at the roles and what roles the participating parties take up.
no matter how you look at it... the attacking player is allways the pirate. so once a pirate is pirating within a given house realm, he is not only attacking the trader as an individual, but he is also attacking the laws of the house. - so the lawfuls are defending their space against a pirate. - that puts them into the defenders role. ( in roleplay of course ) - the pirate chooses to attack the law and the trader, so the lawfuls must react. - and they will do it with whatever is needed to take you down.
that is why lawfuls are allowed battleships and pirates are not allowed - in roleplay.
think of the roles - what happened if pirates strutted into a system in maybe ... a battleship and a few bombers....... to pirate traders. the sheer appearence of such a raid group would call for the military.
you are - in a way correct to say that the house space is too well defended. that is due to the fact that units that are not really participating ( in RP ) in something like hunting pirates still take part in it. ( like the LSF or the Navy ) - if they happend to come across a pirate, they might attack, but they would most likely not activly head to a traders help - thats the LPIs job. ( or apply it to any other house )
about BHGs heading to the help of traders.... if the trader offers them a reward, there is absolutely no problem with that. - if they do it for themselves, there is a problem, but its not a problem of assisting the trader - but its a problem of being ooRP.
[ on the other side of the coin.... if lawfuls were pirating pirates, too - i am sure pirates were allowed to use battleships to defend their space, too. - but lawfuls do not pirate - so that point is void. when lawfuls attack pirates, its an act of warfare - and pirate can answer to that with any force appropriate anyway ]
edit: i m really at a loss why you complain about the piracy rule. - even if you consider it unfair and not inRP - it proved to be reasonable. the pirate is like a fox. he can try to pirate a helpless vessel, but he won t be able to defend himself against a pack of wolves. - or do you think it d have a good impact on the game if pirates were allowed to pirate in battleships. - or do you think it would be beneficial if pirates were not allowed to be attacked in anything bigger than gunboats? - i mean - whats the alternative there.... .
' Wrote:Baltar you havent read what ive written. I also have a pirate char so I know what your talking about as well.
This was the situation.
I was in my CSV. I was a new trader.
I was pirated for "500k or die."
I never had a chance. I died and logged off.
I am NOT LOOPHOLING. I DEFENDED THE PIRATE AGAINST THE PEOPLE
WHO WANTED TO SANCTION HIM! for crying out loud.
I am saying that the pirates need to stepup up their RP AS WELL AS EVERYONE ELSE.
What is lacking on this RP server is RP.
Well ... I'm not saying ALL pirates are good at pirating. I don't pirate CSVs ... you pretty much need to be able to actually make money in order for me to siphon it from you. I can't squeeze a turnip and expect anything from it. My targets are the mega rich traders that I know can afford 500k. I feel no sorrow for traders who are level 60+ ... and really don't care what a trader who's level 80+ thinks. If you're level 60+ ... you can afford 500k and stop whining about it. If you're in this category ... pay, run, get caught and pay or die defending your cargo. But don't cry to me that I'm charging you too much.
' Wrote:like i said - have it your way. personally, i don t mind if you as a pirate are sitting at a lane that is interrupted by a battleship - while another battleship makes the tax demand. it is your way - and if you are indeed charged by half a dozen BHG battlecruisers, you can try to explain yourself if the trader feels like it was treated unjust after all. ( you are then at the very mercy of the traders point of view - if he thinks that disrupting the lane and making a demand was an act of piracy or not )
so it doesn t matter how much i consider roleplay an art or how i play by the rules. - cause i know that i won t get sanctioned, cause i won t tolerate that stuff. - it is only about what you are doing.
on that matter: my pirate char is quite old and i still have lots of fun. - all without any warship support - but of course, bombers are overpowered - i might try to pirate in a VHF another day.
I am typically ALONE while I pirate. I may have a hapalong (a fellow pirate that happens along) with me now and then ... but for the most part I'm alone among dozens of traders. Do you REALLY need a battle cruiser to chase me down? I pretty much stick to Sigma 13 (spend more than 80% of my time in this system). I typically will only leave to chase a trader down that I initiated piracy with in Sigma 13.
But without fail. I find one or two bounty hunters in battle cruisers ... or I'll see a Kusari destroyer in Sigma 13. Come on folks ... if you're gonna bring in the heavy guns ... you expect me to just sit there and take it? Why can't I call in some help of my own? After all ... Corsairs and Junkers populate Sigma 13 pretty heavily. Why can't I get a Corsair friend in his capship to defend me against the bounty hunter in his battle cruiser?
And what we are arguing here is a RARE situation. Pirates don't call on capships to HELP them pirate. If there's no bounty hunters or such present ... I don't need the support. A container transport can pretty much defend itself from a gunboat. And 2 or 3 large trains can do the same.
This whole discussion would not be an issue if it weren't for the overpopulated bounty hunters in battle cruisers. Get rid of the lawful battle cruisers and things are much simpler.
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