So, bases

[Sabru]

@belarusich - do you mean the npc border station in Leeds? Otherwise, there's no PoB I know of at Leeds/NL gate.

@Sava - you also need to consider hours for building/upgrading. Then it's a bit more balanced. I wouldn't want a base I spent billions of credits and hours supplying to be killed overnight while I'm sleeping by a small group of players.

There was one, which shot at everything that came through the gate, but the BAF got rid of it once it became too much of a problem. unfortunately to do this, they had to go a bit ooRP to do it because it as well was a core 4 i think, and was supplied by ooRP means through transports belonging to a lot of different factions.

The way it was gotten rid of led the base owner to QQ on the forum, which led to a lot of debate, discussion, arguing and more QQ.

So this issue of gate/hole blocking has come up before, and the shit that came out of it, you would think, would have been a notice to people not to do such a dick move.

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[Thyrzul]

The real problem is that your groups no longer hold the numbers to counter your opponent. They have more "power" than you, and you don't like that

Yup, a simple station half the size of a battleship holds more "power" than dozens of battleships. THAT's a balance issue in my opinion. And the fact that you can resupply in 2 minutes what the attackers shot down in 4 hours.

EDIT:

@belarusich - do you mean the npc border station in Leeds? Otherwise, there's no PoB I know of at Leeds/NL gate.

@Sava - you also need to consider hours for building/upgrading. Then it's a bit more balanced. I wouldn't want a base I spent billions of credits and hours supplying to be killed overnight while I'm sleeping by a small group of players.

There was one, which shot at everything that came through the gate, but the BAF got rid of it once it became too much of a problem. unfortunately to do this, they had to go a bit ooRP to do it because it as well was a core 4 i think, and was supplied by ooRP means through transports belonging to a lot of different factions.

The way it was gotten rid of led the base owner to QQ on the forum, which led to a lot of debate, discussion, arguing and more QQ.

So this issue of gate/hole blocking has come up before, and the ***** that came out of it, you would think, would have been a notice to people not to do such a dick move.

That was at the NL/Manchester gate on Manchester side.

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[Soul Reaper]

@Thyrzul

Again you're missing key points.

POBs were introduced into discovery so the devs wouldn't have to do it all, and don't talk to me about responsibility, if that were the case we'd also be having to make battleships SRP only or remove them completely, because just like bases, people don't care about what they do with them.

As for the RP, well, you see, -you- do NOT decide how the ZA roleplays, -no one- except for the ZA does. Yes, anyone can make a history of how they're actually a house and all of that, or having infinite resources or superior resources or whatever the hell, that's not up to anyone but the players deciding to do it. They don't have to care. But neither do you, they can say they're a house (just an example) and you can say "not really", but it won't matter, everyone does what they want.

Thing is though, they DO have the manpower and resources to do all of it..because..they just did? That's not power gaming, that's just gaming. They didn't force anyone to do anything, nor did they force lore or anything of the sort, they just used their resources to build platforms, they can do that, you can do it too if you had the manpower and the active playerbase.

Forum Lore is not above ingame roleplay and/or actions, that's something that people seem to be mixing up nowadays.

It's not just them saying "it's ours", they dwell it, roleplay-wise. Or should you need to fight for ownership of the house you live in just because somebody says it's not yours?

Yeah, that's how life kinda works? Kusari said "these systems are mind", didn't stop Gallia from running them over, see how you need to defend your territory? Same goes for Bretonia.

Because they are not the owners of the system, hold no authority over it and have no rights to make decision about the system alone.

Then who does? It's a public system, and the admins do not care. If the ZA has the power to lock it down, then they can. I can make a base in Baffin as an outcast if I wanted to and set it so that it shot everything, Outcasts don't have to care about what the TAZ thinks, they can just invade in, that justifies that I can do that. Again, I'm just using TAZ/Baffin as an example. And when I do make a base, they'll just come by and shoot it down before I can do much, and thus, they defend their system, because they can.

Yeah, Order, Phoenix, Solar Runners, AI, maybe Corsairs too... add those together and say ZA has a bigger military force. Impossible, they are just mere zoners.

Really? Well, where were they when the ZA was building those stations then? That amount of core4 stations don't just come out of nowhere overnight. Their fault, not the ZAs.

You call of this powergaming, but I think you should look up on what powergaming is. They're not forcing anyone to do anything, they're just using their superior manpower. And as for a healthy balance of fairplay(gameplay) and roleplay? I think that balance has been screwed over waaaaay before all of this happened, it's been more of a "FAIRPLAY FAIRPLAY FAIRPLAY, OMG YOU CANT DO THAT IT'S NOT FAIR, FAIRPLAY!!!!!" rather than roleplay, there hasn't been a balance for years.

I say this with my near 6 years of discovery experience, I can easily compare how the years pass. Up to you to believe me though, again, just my opinion.

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[Veygaar]

Yup, a simple station half the size of a battleship holds more "power" than dozens of battleships. THAT's a balance issue in my opinion.

Yep..... Guess we gotta fix every NPC base in the game! OH MY GAWD ADMINS ADMINS DEVS DEVS WE MUST FIX THIS INJUSTICE NOW!!!

.....


But honestly. Days and days and DAYS of work was put into those POBs... So expect to put in DAYS AND DAYS AND DAYS or work to get rid of them... Not hours.

Man up and enjoy the siege, or just REALLY man up and work through it with RP. Didn't they just ask for a cease fire or something? Oh yeah... they did.


:::::::::

If you really want to destroy the bases, get more members and more ships.

If you can't do that, step down from leadership.

If you're not the leader in the first place... Complain to leader.

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Veygaar for Admin Moderator 2013!!!

[Highland Laddie]

@ Thyrz- you keep bringing up the base station size - would you have less problem with them being so powerful if they were simply larger in size ? because that is just a cosmetic issue , not a games mechanic issue .

[Thyrzul]

@Thyrzul

Again you're missing key points.

POBs were introduced into discovery so the devs wouldn't have to do it all, and don't talk to me about responsibility, if that were the case we'd also be having to make battleships SRP only or remove them completely, because just like bases, people don't care about what they do with them.

And that is the issue with the whole, without taking responsibility for your actions, you can pretty much screw up anybody's fun and get away with it. At least battleships are regulated through the server rules.

As for the RP, well, you see, -you- do NOT decide how the ZA roleplays, -no one- except for the ZA does. Yes, anyone can make a history of how they're actually a house and all of that, or having infinite resources or superior resources or whatever the hell, that's not up to anyone but the players deciding to do it. They don't have to care. But neither do you, they can say they're a house (just an example) and you can say "not really", but it won't matter, everyone does what they want.

There are rules, written and unwritten alike what ensures quality roleplay and fairness, and ZA are not exception of these rules. For example, they can't decide to suddenly overrun Rheinland and take over it, that is powergaming. They also can't act like Xenos when they use Zoner ID. Yes, in that case the ID decides how ZA roleplays. That the Admins let ZA declare war on other Zoners is just sad.

Thing is though, they DO have the manpower and resources to do all of it..because..they just did? That's not power gaming, that's just gaming. They didn't force anyone to do anything, nor did they force lore or anything of the sort, they just used their resources to build platforms, they can do that, you can do it too if you had the manpower and the active playerbase.

Didn't force anyone to do anything? They locked down Omicron-74. Twice! The powergaming in the whole is that they are showing off might they lack inRP.

Forum Lore is not above ingame roleplay and/or actions, that's something that people seem to be mixing up nowadays.

Oh, sure, and suddenly in-game mechanics became a deciding factor in major RP stuff, right? How come their boarding attempts got shot down then?

Yeah, that's how life kinda works? Kusari said "these systems are mind", didn't stop Gallia from running them over, see how you need to defend your territory? Same goes for Bretonia.

Gallia ran over them because the devs developed the story this way, not because a bunch of capwhores suddenly rampaged in and killed the KNF. Lore doesn't evolve through minor in-game actions.

Then who does? It's a public system, and the admins do not care. If the ZA has the power to lock it down, then they can. I can make a base in Baffin as an outcast if I wanted to and set it so that it shot everything, Outcasts don't have to care about what the TAZ thinks, they can just invade in, that justifies that I can do that. Again, I'm just using TAZ/Baffin as an example. And when I do make a base, they'll just come by and shoot it down before I can do much, and thus, they defend their system, because they can.

If anybody have authority over the system inRP, then that's the Phoenix, because Admins at least cared enough to grant them officialdom. Lore doesn't evolve by flexing in-game muscles, it mostly evolves through rp consensus, and while I say mostly, I currently know no exceptions.

Really? Well, where were they when the ZA was building those stations then? That amount of core4 stations don't just come out of nowhere overnight. Their fault, not the ZAs.

ZA posed no threat back when building those bases. Would you have foretold they will abuse their bases before they did anything?

You call of this powergaming, but I think you should look up on what powergaming is. They're not forcing anyone to do anything, they're just using their superior manpower.

Superior manpower they posess in-game, but not inRP, and use it to tell Order basically to "fck off", while everyday's zoner should piss his pants if an order agent looks at him bad. They hold power which is yet to be justified inRP, and inRP nothing backs up their actions, attitude towards their surroundings, and the general manner they address their adversaries. It just contradicts with the concept of a Zoner.

And as for a healthy balance of fairplay(gameplay) and roleplay? I think that balance has been screwed over waaaaay before all of this happened, it's been more of a "FAIRPLAY FAIRPLAY FAIRPLAY, OMG YOU CANT DO THAT IT'S NOT FAIR, FAIRPLAY!!!!!" rather than roleplay, there hasn't been a balance for years.

Means we can screw this system up further more, right?

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[Remilia Scarlet]

Someone said "nerf the stationed caps too then if you nerf the bases".

Here I'll agree with Tel Aviv which is strange. Stop buffing some crap that is helpless for gameplay at all. Players must play the game and do everything themselves.

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Where the end starts | Submergence | Awaken | Scarlet D(a\o)wn | Remilia wiki page
BECAUSE YOU DON'T SAY SLAUGHTER WITHOUT LAUGHTER

[Veygaar]

Superior manpower they posess in-game, but not inRP, and use it to tell Order basically to "fck off", while everyday's zoner should piss his pants if an order agent looks at him bad. They hold power which is yet to be justified inRP, and inRP nothing backs up their actions, attitude towards their surroundings, and the general manner they address their adversaries. It just contradicts with the concept of a Zoner.

Bam... The truth is now out!

Players are pissed they don't have as much power inRP as they want to. It really does boil down to this.

"I want the ability to make exactly what I want to happen, HAPPEN. Give me my way or I'm complaining!"


* Veygaar hands out spankings to all.

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Veygaar for Admin Moderator 2013!!!

[Soul Reaper]

Pretty much the stuff Veygaar said.

And don't go into examples that have nothing to do with the current facts Thyrzul, please. Any hardcore stuff like Zoners attacking rheinland and stuff is a major contrast to their ID and direct Zoner lore. We're talking about a zoner system. And no, the Phoenix do not own 74 in any way, as I've stated before, 74 is NOT owned by ANY player faction, this is a fact that I've been told by the Admins.

And how is it sad that Zoners can shoot Zoners? You probably have no idea what a real Zoner is. Let me help you with that, a Zoner is a person that didn't want to live under house laws and regulations therefore went over to the lawless Omicrons to do whatever they could. A zoner, in no way, is required to be friends with other Zoners, at all. The omicrons are lawless, there is no government to stop anything, any person can shoot anything else, they just have to deal with the consequences, mainly the fact that the people they shot will probably shoot them back. That's what a Zoner is. And that's the reason the Admins "allowed" it, because there's nothing wrong with it.

Didn't force anyone to do anything? They locked down Omicron-74. Twice! The powergaming in the whole is that they are showing off might they lack inRP.

Again, go check up on what powergaming is. That is not powergaming. Stop repeating yourself.

ZA posed no threat back when building those bases. Would you have foretold they will abuse their bases before they did anything?

Uhm, yes? Here, let's do this slowly, so people understand.

>A zoner faction, that is, a Zoner can have any diplomacy they want -because they're basically independent people-, a group of them, goes into ZA, a somewhat large group.
>By looking at their action history, they seem like an aggressive bunch.
>They start building multiple bases near the holes, that is, the entry and exit points of that system. And not near just one hole, all of them.

It's kinda obvious. If people couldn't see that, well, that's just their incompetence.

while everyday's zoner should piss his pants if an order agent looks at him bad

Say what? Why the hell would a Zoner have to give a damn about some random people who think they're all spies and stuff? I mean sure, a small group of zoners with a few freighters would be a bit scared because the Order has caps and they don't, but a large group like the ZA which has the resources to build multiple bases, or any other zoner(s) with large ships or a somewhat large amount of ships? Why the hell would they be scared of the Order? Where are you getting this nonsense?

And yes, you're screwing it all up more by bringing more retarded rules, rules are the reason that the server has deteriorated from a roleplaying server to...whatever this is.

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[Thyrzul]

Any hardcore stuff like Zoners attacking rheinland and stuff is a major contrast to their ID and direct Zoner lore.

Pretty much like declaring war on Zoners and Order, but somehow you feel this action is justified because they managed to pull up 4 PoBs to back it up. Quite the RP reasoning, right?

We're talking about a zoner system. And no, the Phoenix do not own 74 in any way, as I've stated before, 74 is NOT owned by ANY player faction, this is a fact that I've been told by the Admins.

Then why are you defending ZA this much, ZA, who try to control what they don't own?

And how is it sad that Zoners can shoot Zoners? You probably have no idea what a real Zoner is. Let me help you with that, a Zoner is a person that didn't want to live under house laws and regulations therefore went over to the lawless Omicrons to do whatever they could. A zoner, in no way, is required to be friends with other Zoners, at all. The omicrons are lawless, there is no government to stop anything, any person can shoot anything else, they just have to deal with the consequences, mainly the fact that the people they shot will probably shoot them back. That's what a Zoner is. And that's the reason the Admins "allowed" it, because there's nothing wrong with it.

And the issue here is that ZA tend to forget their weaknesses as Zoners. Piss off your neighbor and you get shot at, it's just that simple. Living out at the edge of civilization, striving for survival, and bamm, one bunch of Zoners decide to shoot at the other Zoners for some stupid reason? The key word here is "consequences".

Again, go check up on what powergaming is. That is not powergaming. Stop repeating yourself.

By my interpretation that act is powergaming, and if you fail to convince me with reason, it stays this way.

Uhm, yes? Here, let's do this slowly, so people understand.

>A zoner faction, that is, a Zoner can have any diplomacy they want -because they're basically independent people-, a group of them, goes into ZA, a somewhat large group.
>By looking at their action history, they seem like an aggressive bunch.
>They start building multiple bases near the holes, that is, the entry and exit points of that system. And not near just one hole, all of them.

It's kinda obvious. If people couldn't see that, well, that's just their incompetence.

Aaaand that's the god damn issue here, because people who chose to represent Zoners don't act like Zoners, because people too often tend to play their strengths and forget about their weaknesses entirely, and in-game representation of several factions is pretty far from their real in-lore numbers.

They technically can't have any diplomacy they want because most of the options they have would leave them to extinction. Omicrons and edge worlds are harsh places where you can't do anything you want, else you die easily. People out there really have to think twice before they act and that is what I don't see at ZA. You know, you neither see me being cocky with TAZ, CR and Bretonia with my Council Colonel, because that would mean losing a bunch of neighbours as allies and would basically mean the death warrant of whole Roussillon. I am fully aware of the consequences of my actions, and while I could turn the tide of events towards this path, I am very well aware what it would cause. ZA doesn't really seem to be caring about the inRP consequences of their actions. And that they have bases doesn't really justify how they act.

Again, the main point is to suffer from the consequences. It's kinda obvious. If people couldn't see that, well, that's just their incompetence.

Say what? Why the hell would a Zoner have to give a damn about some random people who think they're all spies and stuff?

Because they are god damn living next to eachother. You just don't simply ignore somebody living next door. Yup, that applies only to the Omicron Zoners, but currently they are who we are talking about.

a large group like the ZA which has the resources to build multiple bases, or any other zoner(s) with large ships or a somewhat large amount of ships?

Again, game mechanics lol, if gathering in-game resources would mean that much, Council would have won their civil war already by my powertrading. Your logic fails here.

And yes, you're screwing it all up more by bringing more retarded rules, rules are the reason that the server has deteriorated from a roleplaying server to...whatever this is.

Nah, it's frankly the opposite. Rules keep the server from total anarchy lol. You see, there are no rules about PoBs yet. And of course, you also see all the sh*tstorm around them. Now do the math.

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