Hogosha in NY

[song]

Nope. The NPC's don't attack Hogosha for the simple reason that Hogosha's ZOI is inside Kusari space, so the NPC's were never programmed to have any feelings for them as they would never go inside liberty. NPC's cards only have Ally/Enemy factions which are found in there area, they don't have factions which arn't found in there space on them. So what the NPC's do to player Hogosha going into houses that Hogosha based on FL Lore don't enter is a mute point.

If the US stopped a terrorist organisation(I know Hogosha isn't a terrorist group, but its a common example from RL) from entering the US which had ties to a forren government then they would do there best to stop and detain anyone which has links to that terrorist organisation who entered the US. There wouldn't be any problems doing this and the forren government would be the one which is seen in bad light, not the government which is protecting its citizens.
This has nothing to do with Expelling EVERY Kusari citizen. Hogosha are a faction inside Kusari, they don't make up the whole Kusari.

Again--my npc mention was to make a point. I know the NPCs don't "know anything." But they behave as police would towards Hogosha if they did.

Hogosha aren't terrorists. In Kusari they have respect, outside Kusari they would be seen at worst as smugglers or akin to Junkers.

The Mexican border analogy is perfectly appropriate. If Kusari was seen as a hostile threat towards Liberty then sure preventing Hogosha from entering would be appropriate. But Kusari isn't assaulting Liberty in any way.

The problem is, you are arguing from a "gamer" perspective, not a role play one simulating the reality.

"Hogosha" is not a name most Libertonians would know more than in passing and to most it would be pretty much no more than, "Oh, some Kusari guys".

Hogosha are no more seen as "dangerous criminals who must be stopped" than Junkers are. Junkers can pirate--does Liberty turn Junkers away as pirates?

This isn't common sense deduction--its simply you have a strong preconception that's biasing your objectivity.

---

<span style="font-family:System">Hogosha Exile</span>
The Journal of Benjo Dokosai

visit

[Culebra]

This isn't common sense deduction--its simply you have a strong preconception that's biasing your objectivity.

Interesting statment. I guess you don't? Stucuk's point is just as valid as any other it just affects you so you don't think its valid. I think the overall point is what allows a group to expand their ZOI past what was intended by the game?

It was intended for hogosha to stay in kusari. Now players want to extend their ZOI. Who decides if this is allowed?

[worldstrider]

It's not common sense to deduce that "Hogosha must be hostile to police" if they were ever to reach Liberty.

We are not playing "Freelancer", we are playing the the "Discovery Freelancer Role Playing Mod".

You are trying to extrapolate an assumed tenet from the basically vanilla mindset of the original game and then lay it over Discovery as a "rule" when the "rule" here is role play.

In role play, there are reasons for Hogosha to visit NY on occasion. There is no reason to assume they must be hostile to Liberty authorities.

If you do absolutely believe this, then you must also absolutely believe Junkers must be hostile to Kusari authorities as well.

If that is the case, why are we playing Junker characters who do not have red reputations with all Kusari lawful groups?

I understand his point, but it can't be established as a given rule. So the next step is, if it isn't established as a given rule, how do we role play it?

My solution is to do it in role play creatively--the other proposed solution is to limit the options of those players for an assumed rule.

One way says, play it. The other says, restrict play. There is no reason to restrict Hogosha role play to only Kusari--not a reason that enhances role play. The only "reason" to do it is that players not playing Hogosha want a simplistic solution for a faction they aren't playing themselves.

I think we have a total of five active Hogosha players on here (and only three are really active). This is a "big" problem that requires the Hogosha players be screwed down even tighter?

Why? It will not help get players involved with the faction. It restricts their play options. What is the advantage?

I am looking at it from the viewpoint of "What encourages more play?" not, "How do I make sure no one is playing differently than I want them to?"

This whole thread started essentially with a "I don't like this or think it's fair and can't we stop them?" premise. That's why I said the viewpoint is preconceived and biased.

And...argh..it isn't affecting me (my characters). I have a Hogosha reputationed, MERCENARY tagged character. He can go anywhere he likes. But I have also played a Hogosha and understand for the faction to be played (which it really isn't) the additions Igiss put in the mod for them need to be able to be exploited by players with Hogosha characters.

---

[Culebra]

This whole thread started essentially with a "I don't like this or think it's fair and can't we stop them?" premise. That's why I said the viewpoint is preconceived and biased.

Iv seen a Hogosha claiming that he is lawful and "can't be touched" by lawfuls and states that NY is in his factions ZOI because he does Artifact smuggling.

This was actualy the original complaint. The fact that a hogosha said he was lawful and could not be touched. So yeah I don't like that and we should stop him. That doesn't mean I want a rule saying he can't come in to liberty. Stop using that as an arguement its getting old. If I see a hogosha I will kill him only because they are hostile to me. I could care less what they do.

I am not trying to restrict RP here. My point is that both sides are biased bc they want something. If you can't see that then I cannot help. People are restricted by ZOI thats the way the game works. You won't see RM running around liberty bc they are busy doing things in Rheinland. Like the hogosha should be busy doing things in kusari. My question was who decides when it is ok for a group to extend their ZOI?

[Stucuk]

Couldn't be bothered reading everything above(The "Your trying to limit our RP" can only be read so meny times). The whole point isn't to ban every faction from entering Liberty, its to make people play on an even playing field. All other factions have a ZOI. They can't just go "Oh well the price of artifacts is rearly good in Liberty so Liberty is now in our ZOI". If every faction did that then there would be Order selling nomads in Cambridge, as well thats the best place to sell nomads, so that has to be there ZOI. Effectivly if every faction did what the Hogosha are doing then there would be no borders, it would effectivly be like a PVP server where players of any faction are found everywhere.

The problem that i see is that players are using the price of goods as an EXCUSE to go places which should be out of there ZOI based on the Freelancer Lore which afaik players are ment to try and use as a basis of there RP. All other factions have to stick within a ZOI thats determined by Freelancers Lore.

You are trying to extrapolate an assumed tenet from the basically vanilla mindset of the original game and then lay it over Discovery as a "rule" when the "rule" here is role play.

Your way is anarcy. What your saying is that if you make something up its then fact, someone else can do the same. Thats not true. Everyone has to stick to a basic template for each faction otherwise you have anarcy with everyone just making up whatever they want. You can always RP stuff, but u can't just make up crap that everything is now in your ZOI just because you want it to be. Freelancer lore is WHERE WE GET OUR RP BASIS FROM.

---

[worldstrider]

This whole thread started essentially with a "I don't like this or think it's fair and can't we stop them?" premise. That's why I said the viewpoint is preconceived and biased.

Iv seen a Hogosha claiming that he is lawful and "can't be touched" by lawfuls and states that NY is in his factions ZOI because he does Artifact smuggling.

This was actualy the original complaint. The fact that a hogosha said he was lawful and could not be touched. So yeah I don't like that and we should stop him. That doesn't mean I want a rule saying he can't come in to liberty. Stop using that as an arguement its getting old. If I see a hogosha I will kill him only because they are hostile to me. I could care less what they do.

I am not trying to restrict RP here. My point is that both sides are biased bc they want something. If you can't see that then I cannot help. People are restricted by ZOI thats the way the game works. You won't see RM running around liberty bc they are busy doing things in Rheinland. Like the hogosha should be busy doing things in kusari. My question was who decides when it is ok for a group to extend their ZOI?

I think the Hogosha player you originally mentioned was not showing the best rp--to be kind. As to not being touched? Depends on by who. Just a bad experience with a not so good play. You don't have to change rules for it.

There is a difference in a faction extending its ZOI and a smuggling faction taking it core role play commodity to the best market for it. Take for example, DW wanting Omega-15 as a clan system. They were told no by admins. Look at Outcast and Corsair players wanting to send fleets to camp in Liberty on a regular basis--also told no. But a Junker can arguably fly almost anywhere. Does this include Order space? There doesn't seem much reason to be there for a Junker but we don't need a hard rules interpretation to prevent it because someone might role play that. In fact, I can think of an angle on that too--for example, there is a Junker bribe at Mitchell Prison station.

Absolutely Hogosha should be doing things in Kusari...all three of them. Their name means "Guardian" and they should be about. A Hogosha player carrying a Hogosha ID has no permanent business in Liberty (though I can actually think of an exception to even that--which I'll keep to myself and maybe share with a real Hogosha player some time).

Hogosha are Order allies--What's the ZOI for this?

Hogosha re Corsair allies--What's the ZOI for this?

Hogosha are stated to be financed primarily by their artifact sales--where do they get and sell them to be so successful at it that it funds their operations? What's the ZOI for this?

Hogosha are allies to Gaians--What's the ZOI for this?

Hogosha are commited nationalists--there is a war against Bretonia. What's the ZOI for this?

Hogosha are hard enemies of Junkers and GMG--what ZOI should that include?

I'm not sarcastically asking these questions. When you talk about "extending ZOI" its wrong if someone just fabricates a non-sensical reason to do so.

Hogosha have an extended ZOI already--just no one is playing it. And just as people opposed Junkers having a faction clan, some players will say, "No No No!...put the Hogosha toys back in the vanilla box!" Hogosha can play any of the above scenarios as long as they have a good character rationale for each character doing so. Of the Hogosha I played, one had a "Guards tag". he flew a Kusari gunboat and made raids on passing Outcasts ships in Tau near kali base and the Kyushu jh. he also occasionally made hit and run raids versus Bretonian shipping just inside the gate by Leeds. Another smuggled synth marijuana and artifacts to Liberty--carrying a mixed load so if the authorities were at one sell point, they could dock the other and still sell until it was clear. Another played as an Order "exchange" pilot. Flying with the Order as an ally to show commitment and gain knowledge and skills of their allies they could return home with. Stilla nother made regular trips to Gamma to be known to the Corsairs. All patrolled Kusari on a regular basis.

Which ones were "out of their ZOI"?

The solution is not to say, "Well no one is playing it much so let's shut it down more so no one will."

---

[chopper]

The problem that i see is that players are using the price of goods as an EXCUSE to go places which should be out of there ZOI based on the Freelancer Lore which afaik players are ment to try and use as a basis of there RP. All other factions have to stick within a ZOI thats determined by Freelancers Lore.

So, I guess Hogosha's ZOI is only in New Tokyo and only where their NPC's are?
Read Tinkerbell's post carefully, because you are not being objective here.
You can't limit someone's ZOI just like that.
I'v even seen Keepers in California, Dragons in O-Gamma and bloody Outcasts in N-Berlin.
It doesn't mean it's their ZOI.
ZOI = Zone of Influence. Do you know the meaning of this?
So, if Hogosha is out of their ZOI - they don't have the influence.
And that is exactly how things are.
ZOI isn't some metal fence for cattle that will stop them from going somewhere.
It's just a boundary, it shows where a specific faction has influence and where it doesn't.

For example, it's totally different to see a Hogosha player in NY and to see a Hogosha player in NY pirating people.
Those are two different things.

Also, can you write me Hogosha's Zone of Influence please? I want to see your view of Hogosha's ZOI.
Please write down from where to where is their ZOI.
Thanks.

Just to show you how wrong you are, I guarantee that there could be a Hogosha faction with Liberty in it's ZOI.
Only thing they need to do is to justify it. For example, secret dealings with Xenos, or movements against Junkers.
I actually think that Hogosha-Junker hatred should escalate in to a war soon.
So, where should we fight, dear friend? Kusari is out of Junker's ZOI, and everything else is out of Hogosha's ZOI (your words).
So, I guess we should make a nonRP war in Connecticut? No thanks.

Hogosha have an extended ZOI already--just no one is playing it

Actually, I do. I am cutting Brettonian supplies in Leeds and Tau-31 to help in a war. And I don't think I'm out of my ZOI.
I never camp in Leeds, I'm hidden and I only pirate, never fight the lawfuls.
I could think of 10 other reasons to be in Liberty other then smuggling artifacts.

---

It is every Corsair's responsibility to die a beautiful death in defense of Crete, regardless of how OORP or how capwhoring the opposition is. Launch your fighter, joust the battlecruisers and die a beautiful death. Then, drink it down in the bar.

Can't let you bash folks in your sig Chopper-Del

[Stucuk]

Lets take your logic and apply it on the Corsairs.

Corsairs are enemies with Outcasts and there Allies. It would then stand to reason that Liberty is within the Corsair ZOI based on your flawd logic due to the fact there enemies are found there. Corsairs would then help Liberty to kill Outcasts and there Allies, but agree not to attack Liberty ships. Due to this Corsairs would have Liberty as there ZOI.

But Liberty players would tell Corsairs to leave the area. Even tho based on your logic Corsairs would have Liberty in there ZOI. If a Corsair landed on a Liberty base they would get a nice Sanction, dispite your logic. How is this fair?

Also, can you write me Hogosha's Zone of Influence please?

Kusari and its borders based on the fact that they are a local group who only has interests in Kusari. They control the government. They wouldn't risk trying to break into other markets as they would get hammered due to the fact the Junkers have friends outside of Kusari who would want to protect there own profits and help there allies. Hogosha would be outnumbered if they tryed to break out of there ZOI(Assuming there was enough players to accuratly represent Junkers and there Allies). The moment a Hogosha transport left Kusari Junkers and there allies would pounce on it. Its like a Siege, Hogosha's enemies are in the space all around Kusari, and just like a siege, nothing would get through.

ZOI = Zone of Influence. Do you know the meaning of this?

Does it mean that E=MC2? Maybe it means that an Apple costs more than a Pear? Meh.... its way too hard.........

So, where should we fight, dear friend? Kusari is out of Junker's ZOI, and everything else is out of Hogosha's ZOI (your words).
So, I guess we should make a nonRP war in Connecticut? No thanks.

I don't care where u fight, but sending UNPROTECTED transports "into the lions den" is a different matter. No unprotected hogosha transport would be able to get into Liberty space, they would be destroyed way before they got near to NY. But there isn't ever enough players on to make sure this actualy happens, which is why ZOI is important as it keeps everything ballenced as it should be rather than players going anywhere dispite the fact that if FL was real they would be destroyed before getting to there destination.

---

[chopper]

Kusari and its borders based on the fact that they are a local group who only has interests in Kusari. They control the government. They wouldn't risk trying to break into other markets as they would get hammered due to the fact the Junkers have friends outside of Kusari who would want to protect there own profits and help there allies. Hogosha would be outnumbered if they tryed to break out of there ZOI(Assuming there was enough players to accuratly represent Junkers and there Allies). The moment a Hogosha transport left Kusari Junkers and there allies would pounce on it. Its like a Siege, Hogosha's enemies are in the space all around Kusari, and just like a siege, nothing would get through.

Oh, right.. So I guess Corsairs bring Artifacts to Hogosha, who then sell it 50k away from Kabukicho and earn profit.
Yes, makes sense.
False! Hogosha has every right to go all the way to Crete to buy artifacts.
Or even better to Hawaii, as it's in their story. And you know what? Both are out of Kusari.
Here's the proof.

The Hogosha made a recent arrangement to purchase Artifacts directly from the Corsairs on the cruise ship Hawaii, a move that infuriated the GMG, who formerly served as the middleman between the two crime syndicates.

Let's go further.

The moment a Hogosha transport left Kusari Junkers and there allies would pounce on it.

Well, why don't they? I have nothing against Junkers waiting for me outside Kusari.
And I guess Corsairs would help Junkers to kill Hogosha. Logical again.

I don't care where u fight, but sending UNPROTECTED transports "into the lions den" is a different matter. No unprotected hogosha transport would be able to get into Liberty space, they would be destroyed way before they got near to NY.

Don't just tell me what WOULD happen, make it happen.
Smugglers know how to stay hidden and unnoticed. If a smuggler has 10 fighters protecting it, it's not a smuggler anymore, it's a fleet.

I'm telling you again, stop trying to limit someone's RP and concentrate on your own.
You are here flaming the smallest (by smallest i mean it has smallest number of players RP-ing it) faction for going out of Kusari, even though we proved you wrong many times.
Tinkerbell wrote you down many reasons for leaving Kusari.

Lets take your logic and apply it on the Corsairs.

Corsairs are enemies with Outcasts and there Allies. It would then stand to reason that Liberty is within the Corsair ZOI based on your flawd logic due to the fact there enemies are found there. Corsairs would then help Liberty to kill Outcasts and there Allies, but agree not to attack Liberty ships. Due to this Corsairs would have Liberty as there ZOI.

But Liberty players would tell Corsairs to leave the area. Even tho based on your logic Corsairs would have Liberty in there ZOI. If a Corsair landed on a Liberty base they would get a nice Sanction, dispite your logic. How is this fair?

Corsairs don't have to fight Outcasts in Liberty, they do it in Omicrons. You'r talking rubbish here. They are 2 systems away from each other's home planet.
Why would they go trough Nomads and Order just to kill some lowlifes who happened to live in Liberty?
Real deal is in Omicrons.
On the other hand, Hogosha can't fight Junkers at all (your logic again), because they have nowhere to fight.

Its like a Siege, Hogosha's enemies are in the space all around Kusari, and just like a siege, nothing would get through.

You'r talking rubbish again. Junkers could care less about Hogosha leaving Kusari, as long as they are not taking a piece of their cake.
When that happens, they will get mad.
Also, Junkers CAN'T control Liberty north border due to the fact that it's mainly a Xeno territory.
That means Junkers pretty much avoid it. Seen any Junker NPC's there? Didn't think so.
It must be out of their ZOI! Report! REPORT!!!

---

It is every Corsair's responsibility to die a beautiful death in defense of Crete, regardless of how OORP or how capwhoring the opposition is. Launch your fighter, joust the battlecruisers and die a beautiful death. Then, drink it down in the bar.

Can't let you bash folks in your sig Chopper-Del

[Zelot]

Ok, I have tried to stay out of this one for too long now. A few things. I think all of this ZOI crap is just that...crap. My Farmers regularly raid Bretonia with the aim of harming the Bretonian war effort. We sometimes move into the Sigma's to attack GMG and Junker operations in that area. If I saw an opportunity to attack SynthFoods in Liberty, I would do it. Would I stay there long? of course not, it's a hit and run, but just because something is outside my "ZOI" doesnt mean I am not going to go there. It means I am far away from support and friendlies, it means if I get into trouble I am on my own. It means I have a long flight there and a long flight back. Or it means I have to find an allies base to dock at. Now in Liberty, there are no friendly bases, so I am further from my support network, making any action much more risky, and that has to be taken into account, but depending on the potential reward, it may be worth it.



IMO, ZOI's are not walls that cant be moved through, instead the are indications about how risky an operation would be.

edit: Who are these "Junker Allies"? As I understood the situation, Junkers were neutral to almost everyone.

---