Admin Notice: ZOI changes for RM, BDM, BAF and BIS. (Feedback Time)

[FallenKnight]

If it's clearly understandable that Bretonian, exhausted by two wars and surrounded by enemies, would try to have Rheinland protecting o-3. In fact Bretonia should not be able to hold omega-3 properly without endangering its other frontsor collapsing at all, so let's not speak about patroling omega-7.

Bretonia does not invite Rheinland in the way you think we would do - to act as our protectors. The whole point is to allow them officially to defend their Dauman base (located in O-3) on top of warming our relations by doing so due to the increased numbers of threats in the Omegas, which I believe you are aware of. It is a complicated cooperation. The Omega Alliance we are discussing with Rheinland is huge bold step between the Houses - something that would allow us to defend our border worlds properly against the omega enemies which are rising threat at the moment. Also Omega-3 is legit Bretonian sovereign territory and believe it or not - there is a Civil Defence Initiative small fleet orbiting planet Sprague, assisted by small number of ships from Norfolk and some BPA patrols. Bretonia can defend well Omega-3 but only against certain enemies. If these enemies combine things might go wrong - here comes Rheinland. Same goes for Omega-7, considering the RHA recent hostile actions against Bretonia - we believe its time to finally unite with Rheinland and support each other against all these common enemies as Houses.

I guess the situation is quite different for Rheinland, even if the last war with Liberty should have left the former ( or both of them ) bled dry... somehow. My question would be what is the interrest of rheinland to protect Bretonia ? Isn't rheinland having already home issues ? IS this a way to create an opportunity to size O-3 for itself ?

You are right - Rheinland suffered a lot as well. And they need cash to build ships - believe it or not Bretonia still holds all the Gold in Sirius so we have a lot to offer each other and the benefits would be inRP mutual. And stop saying "Rheinland protecting Bretonia" ...whole day reading exaggerated stuff. Calm down and read the so far proposed treaty - we are inviting a small task force not an entire fleet. I think it is pointless to discuss future RP stuff without them being done yet in RP, so enough already. Rheinland is in no position to cause harm to Bretonia and is out of there interest as a whole. Both sides can benefit greatly. Bretonia will gain a lot of resources from Rheinland and in return deliver what they need as well.

Would the Corsairs or Hessians have not been able to push onward in o-3 and capture some of the less defended stations, especially thoses far away from the lanes ? Lot of question, right.

You know "Ingame actions =/= RP lore" but still...veterans like us love to RP any possible outcome...that is why we decided to act and push this Omega Alliance - to prevent such unlawful raids which would possibly lead to capturing bases. Call it - preparation for a storm that might or might not hit us. That is why it all makes sense.

But to put it bluntly : i found this additional ZOIs, not really matching the current course of events ( i would say even, the contrary of the current situation ) . Am i the only one to see it through the lens of RP ?

If you read what I said or paid attention to the developments of Omega-3 issues/events since 1 year...you would never ask this question in first place. I don't know how others RP around but from Bretonia point of view - we are always following the statement of "RP actions lead to RP consequences". So what we do now is reflection to the events that happened during this last year.

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Discovery Bridges[Feedback] Baron Piett[Biography]

[Mannock]

I don´t see the problem here. Why the military or the police can´t chase a few bad guys beyond their frontier or enforce the law where, not dicrectly them, but corps or individuals from their house have interest (nor ZoI). If any side don´t recognize sovereing about a system to another side they can go.

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[Blodwyn O'Driscoll]

If it's clearly understandable that Bretonian, exhausted by two wars and surrounded by enemies, would try to have Rheinland protecting o-3. In fact Bretonia should not be able to hold omega-3 properly without endangering its other frontsor collapsing at all, so let's not speak about patroling omega-7.

Bretonia does not invite Rheinland in the way you think we would do - to act as our protectors. The whole point is to allow them officially to defend their Dauman base (located in O-3) on top of warming our relations by doing so due to the increased numbers of threats in the Omegas, which I believe you are aware of. It is a complicated cooperation. The Omega Alliance we are discussing with Rheinland is huge bold step between the Houses - something that would allow us to defend our border worlds properly against the omega enemies which are rising threat at the moment. Also Omega-3 is legit Bretonian sovereign territory and believe it or not - there is a Civil Defence Initiative small fleet orbiting planet Sprague, assisted by small number of ships from Norfolk and some BPA patrols. Bretonia can defend well Omega-3 but only against certain enemies. If these enemies combine things might go wrong - here comes Rheinland. Same goes for Omega-7, considering the RHA recent hostile actions against Bretonia - we believe its time to finally unite with Rheinland and support each other against all these common enemies as Houses.

I guess the situation is quite different for Rheinland, even if the last war with Liberty should have left the former ( or both of them ) bled dry... somehow. My question would be what is the interrest of rheinland to protect Bretonia ? Isn't rheinland having already home issues ? IS this a way to create an opportunity to size O-3 for itself ?

You are right - Rheinland suffered a lot as well. And they need cash to build ships - believe it or not Bretonia still holds all the Gold in Sirius so we have a lot to offer each other and the benefits would be inRP mutual. And stop saying "Rheinland protecting Bretonia" ...whole day reading exaggerated stuff. Calm down and read the so far proposed treaty - we are inviting a small task force not an entire fleet. I think it is pointless to discuss future RP stuff without them being done yet in RP, so enough already. Rheinland is in no position to cause harm to Bretonia and is out of there interest as a whole. Both sides can benefit greatly. Bretonia will gain a lot of resources from Rheinland and in return deliver what they need as well.

I guess someone's triggered...


Well, i'll still answer something on the subject :

Also Omega-3 is legit Bretonian sovereign territory and believe it or not - there is a Civil Defence Initiative small fleet orbiting planet Sprague, assisted by small number of ships from Norfolk and some BPA patrols. Bretonia can defend well Omega-3 but only against certain enemies.

Noone is saying that o-3 is not a soveriegn territory, protectorate, or whatever you call it. And the point wasn't about the treaty between Rheinland and Bretonia.... Simply that considering the war with Kusari, then Gallia, and the number of prowerfull enemies lying in the omegas ( AKA : corsairs and Hessians ) it's simply unrealistic to believe that Bretonia is able to defend omega-3 on its own. Hence this treaty , i suppose. And let's not speak about Sprague that is more likely to become an issue than an asset, due to the way the whole colonisation/deportation was done..
So considering this point, it would be surprising to see Bretonia willing to sacrifice even a few fighters in omega-7.


The other point i wanted to underligne was : i can't find any mention of Baf vessels alowance to enter o-7 in this treaty... So why would the ZOI would be changeg for bret ships ( as announced ) ?

Would the Corsairs or Hessians have not been able to push onward in o-3 and capture some of the less defended stations, especially thoses far away from the lanes ? Lot of question, right.

You know "Ingame actions =/= RP lore" but still...veterans like us love to RP any possible outcome...that is why we decided to act and push this Omega Alliance - to prevent such unlawful raids which would possibly lead to capturing bases. Call it - preparation for a storm that might or might not hit us. That is why it all makes sense.

But to put it bluntly : i found this additional ZOIs, not really matching the current course of events ( i would say even, the contrary of the current situation ) . Am i the only one to see it through the lens of RP ?

If you read what I said or paid attention to the developments of Omega-3 issues/events since 1 year...you would never ask this question in first place. I don't know how others RP around but from Bretonia point of view - we are always following the statement of "RP actions lead to RP consequences". So what we do now is reflection to the events that happened during this last year.

Is this answer some sort of straw man fallacy ? Sorry, don't buy it...

[Thunderer]

It will definitely be fun when Rheinland asks Bretonia to pay off its debts after the war.

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Bretonian Treaty Database Bretonian Armed Forces Recruitment Center
Bretonian Charter of Interstellar Law Bretonian Secrets Act

[FallenKnight]

I guess someone's triggered...

Naah. All players that know me are aware of my "walls of text" - so do not be confused - I am simply explaining things in detail.

As for Bretonia lawfuls able or unable to defend their sovereign space...again will say that ingame actions =/= inRP. If you see 20 RHA battleships in game, be aware that in RP they have possibly 1 or 2 compared to lets say ~20 dunkirks total? If you see 30 corsair bombers in RP they have less...and etc and etc. House space and House fleets are something that is sadly not possible to be represented well but do have in mind they are big enough to handle most threats unless they are equal to another House navy (like it happened with KNF/GRN) then things might get messed. The only secondary factions able to hurt a lot a House are: Nomads/Corsairs and Outcasts. And even they are inRP having a lot of problems by doing so. Take Cambridge for example - why Corsairs have not raided and captured anything? Well the truth is - if they do so, they would need their entire armada to destroy Norfolk and even if they succeed...they will lose all ships they have and Outcasts will annihilate them.

I didnt want to bring the subject of "npc ship numbers" on the line - but I think it was the best example to give you to understand the RP situation more accurately.

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Discovery Bridges[Feedback] Baron Piett[Biography]

[Blodwyn O'Driscoll]

I guess someone's triggered...

Naah. All players that know me are aware of my "walls of text" - so do not be confused - I am simply explaining things in detail.

As for Bretonia lawfuls able or unable to defend their sovereign space...again will say that ingame actions =/= inRP. If you see 20 RHA battleships in game, be aware that in RP they have possibly 1 or 2 compared to lets say ~20 dunkirks total? If you see 30 corsair bombers in RP they have less...and etc and etc. House space and House fleets are something that is sadly not possible to be represented well but do have in mind they are big enough to handle most threats unless they are equal to another House navy (like it happened with KNF/GRN) then things might get messed. The only secondary factions able to hurt a lot a House are: Nomads/Corsairs and Outcasts. And even they are inRP having a lot of problems by doing so. Take Cambridge for example - why Corsairs have not raided and captured anything? Well the truth is - if they do so, they would need their entire armada to destroy Norfolk and even if they succeed...they will lose all ships they have and Outcasts will annihilate them.

I didnt want to bring the subject of "npc ship numbers" on the line - but I think it was the best example to give you to understand the RP situation more accurately.

That is exactly the straw man fallacy i mentioned afore

Look, i never talked about ingame actions, or the 9000 RHA battleships... you brought that in.


So let's get back to the point and not compares orange with apples :
If you want to talk in fleet therm, Bretonia possess inrp 10 fleets :

1st Fleet / New London Planetary Fleet
2nd Fleet / Leeds Planetary Fleet /Ground Force Resistance Leads
3rd Fleet / Cambridge Planetary Fleet
4th Fleet / Norfolk Great Fleet
5th Fleet / Suffolk Great Fleet
6th Fleet / Essex Great Fleet
7th Fleet / Derby Great Fleet: DESTROYED
8th Fleet / York Great Fleet
9th Fleet / Ark Royal Great Fleet
10th Fleet / MacDuff Great Fleet
11th Fleet / Grimsby Great Fleet

And none of them fleet, excepted a few ship from Norfolk's fleet protects Omega-3.

House space and House fleets are something that is sadly not possible to be represented well but do have in mind they are big enough to handle most threats unless they are equal to another House navy.[...]The only secondary factions able to hurt a lot a House are: Nomads/Corsairs and Outcasts.

So finally, we don't have to talk about thoses fleets, because, there's no fleet defending O-3. And even raiding parties of sufficient strength can be a threat to that Achilles' heel that is omega-3.
Let's say it's a miracle that Douglos or Rugen station did fall to any enemy hands... Oh let's not talk about miracle... shall we say instead, story dev' deus ex machina ?


So where were we ? Bretonian militaries getting ZOI in omega-7 even if the treaty doesn't mention it, and let's not speak about the unfavourable lore situation.
Baaah

It will definitely be fun when Rheinland asks Bretonia to pay off its debts after the war.

Also , i laughed

[FallenKnight]

So finally, we don't have to talk about thoses fleets, because, there's no fleet defending O-3. And even raiding parties of sufficient strength can be a threat to that Achilles' heel that is omega-3.

There is a fleet defending O-3...I told you its CDI+BPA+small numbers from Norfolk. It should be represented #soon with a civilian carrier NPC in the orbit. But inRP it exist. It is not as powerful as the fleets you mentioned (thank you for informing me about the BAF fleets ) but still is fine. In Rp Bretonia created CDI before 2-3 years and were massing their numbers there. Civilians are being trained to act as militia (the Lore mentioned that so we did RP around it). The colonization of Omega-3 was done very slowly - it was not done lightly. Overall you are right O-3 is most vulnerable...again - that is why Bretonia is warming relations with Rheinland cuz both Houses have bases in this area and none of them can defend them properly (Norfolk is too far to provide real cover and RM are unable to enter ID wise).

So where were we ? Bretonian militaries getting ZOI in omega-7 even if the treaty doesn't mention it, and let's not speak about the unfavourable lore situation.

Just because they get a line extending the ZOI in their ID doesn't mean instantly they will fly to O-7, cause problems, lead to OORP or anti-lore wise actions and etc...stop speculating. I guess the admins made this decision based on the mutual cooperation "eye for an eye". RP wise BAF have no place in O-7 atm but just imagine a situation lets say RM is in need of help and BAF are in O-3 (1 jump gate close to them) - it would be a super rare occasion and then BAF wont get sanctioned for doing so. Same goes for RM assisting in O-3.

But eitherway - none of these RP steps are handled yet...and considering the time it took us to nearly complete in oorp the treaty, which is not yet finished...well - you wont be seeing such cooperation very soon. So chill with the speculations guys and instead focus on the important anti abuse proposals several players already mentioned. These changes need to be reworded for clarity sake.

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Discovery Bridges[Feedback] Baron Piett[Biography]

[Blodwyn O'Driscoll]

So finally, we don't have to talk about thoses fleets, because, there's no fleet defending O-3. And even raiding parties of sufficient strength can be a threat to that Achilles' heel that is omega-3.

There is a fleet defending O-3...I told you its CDI+BPA+small numbers from Norfolk. It should be represented #soon with a civilian carrier NPC in the orbit. But inRP it exist. It is not as powerful as the fleets you mentioned (thank you for informing me about the BAF fleets ) but still is fine. In Rp Bretonia created CDI before 2-3 years and were massing their numbers there. Civilians are being trained to act as militia (the Lore mentioned that so we did RP around it). The colonization of Omega-3 was done very slowly - it was not done lightly. Overall you are right O-3 is most vulnerable...again - that is why Bretonia is warming relations with Rheinland cuz both Houses have bases in this area and none of them can defend them properly (Norfolk is too far to provide real cover and RM are unable to enter ID wise).

C'mon; a small numbers of ships from Norfolk, some BPA detachment, and the so-called CDI, a bunch of ragtag misfits hardly makes a fleet.. It exists, and its better than nothing at all ... But not a fleet , let's be serious
Still totally not enough to protect the system on their own.

So where were we ? Bretonian militaries getting ZOI in omega-7 even if the treaty doesn't mention it, and let's not speak about the unfavourable lore situation.

Just because they get a line extending the ZOI in their ID doesn't mean instantly they will fly to O-7, cause problems, lead to OORP or anti-lore wise actions and etc...stop speculating. I guess the admins made this decision based on the mutual cooperation "eye for an eye". RP wise BAF have no place in O-7 atm but just imagine a situation lets say RM is in need of help and BAF are in O-3 (1 jump gate close to them) - it would be a super rare occasion and then BAF wont get sanctioned for doing so. Same goes for RM assisting in O-3.

But eitherway - none of these RP steps are handled yet...and considering the time it took us to nearly complete in oorp the treaty, which is not yet finished...well - you wont be seeing such cooperation very soon. So chill with the speculations guys and instead focus on the important anti abuse proposals several players already mentioned. These changes need to be reworded for clarity sake.

WoAAAAHHH, again the straw man fallacy ? Kind of a habit to you ?
Where did i mention that the extanded ZOI would cause "problems, OORP or anti-lore actions" ?

No i'm just saying that adding this ZOI ( byt itself ) to Bret militaries, is just ridiculous lore-wise as they just can't commit forces there, even on "super rare occasion" as they barely have force to maintain themselves in omega-3...

[Tree72]

We can all agree this is going to have some weird effects no matter the side.

[Hubjump]

can i just say lore wise and player wise (ingame)
NOTHING MAKES SENSE