Faction Control of Capital Ships... or...

[Kambei]

I have one simple question for this thread:

Why do factions want to restrict independants when they are not meant to be trying to 'solve' OORP matters?

1. Because indie capwhore can harm their good name
2. Because players in oficial factiosn usualy work hard on their RP, ranks, player reputation, and want fun in their ZOI
3. Because if we have system of official factions, it is nonsense to have indie capships... why to hell ppl pay 500 000 000 and loose time with faction proposals and faction RP to gain oficial status if it is worthy less than used toalet paper?

I am in 2 oficial factions and both are very strict about indie caps. Both are working hard on own reputation and act like esencial part of NPC faction (RHA, KNF)... if there are famous fairy tales about RM restrictions against indie caps, ha! try to fly in kusari in kusari destroyer and you'll know what does it mean restriction.

I saw it many times, I had nice fair pvp with RMs, everybody had fun but BANG indie cruiser camed and it was over... and of corse childish oorp "leave system for 4 hours looser" at the end every time.

Or 2 days ago, we (RHA) had encounter with corsairs in O3... it was fair fight, fun on both sides but bang indie UNINVITED hessian cruiser camed and BANG... over of fun. Sadly sairs was pissed out much than is usual because they are probably new on server so they made scandal about it and gues what... since RHA is known as equivalent to NPC faction they said that cruiser was our so whole fault is on RHA's head. Am I RPing like idiot and working hard like mule on our reputation and RP for nothing? Bah what me... poor BLODO and rest of guys.

I saw it in Liberty weak ago... LN officer dude said to indie cap he want fair 1 vs 1 with pirate and what our indie did? He said something like "as comander of cruiser I have higher rank than you" and of corse killed that poor pirate in fighter.... WHAT HE HAD? HIGHER RANK? DID HE SPENDT WEAKS IN LN SERVICES TO GAIN ANY RANK? REALY? IF YES WHY TO HELL JOE LOOSE HIS TIME AND PAYD 500 000 000 IF ANY JERK IN BATTLESHIP CAN SAY "UUUH IM ADMIRAL LICK MY :CENSORED:"

Yes I did it... I forced unregistered dessie to dock and log off. Ban me because I'll do it again because KNF have strict rules against caps and orders what to do with unaproved caps... I am soldier and I must obey orders. If that is worst RP than RP of "lololol I pwn all" dessie owner... hell this piss me off.

SO YES OFFICIAL FACTION CAN RESTRICT INDIES IN THEIR ZOI BECAUSE THEY ARE OFFCIAL AND INDIES ARE NOT.

//btw... I was noob on server too and I had my own kusarian battleship (if someone remember Taiko) and yes I deleted it because Im here to do play on RP server and it is bad RP dont obey order of admiral (which was and still is Lotek aka Sulu) and order was clear... decompose. Hell yeah I deleted my indie BS with MK VII armor (it is 1 bilion credits btw) because I decided it was bad RP from me to disobey order of oficial admiral. Time of ship in space was less than 3 hours:P

//2 btw... bhg dildo ships are chapter for itself... bah

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[Eppy]

Answer is they all want to be power hungry cap whores themselves, without anybody to oppose them.

Since that's the case, does that mean you won't mind us calling you an egocentric, self-righteous, anarchistic, punctuation-lacking moron, will you?

Why do factions want to restrict independants when they are not meant to be trying to 'solve' OORP matters?

The issue here is the 'they are not meant' part. We're disagreeing strongly on this, because the Admins can't do enough, and they hold people to a considerably lower standard of capship RP than we do. If I see somebody in a Sabre who's borderline RPing I won't take too much notice of it, but caps draw instant attention-they always become the center of a group of players (except in New York, where the caps and players are both ((not caps so much anymore, THANK you, Joe)) so thick it doesn't matter), they always draw the most attention, and they can lay down the most firepower, as well as draw the most fire. They are always the center of attention, and an uncooperative borderline-RP Battleship can spoil the atmosphere a hundred times more than a borderline-RP fighter, because that's what people look at. We think asking a few reasonable things of potential cap owners before they buy their ships is the best way of keeping the OoRP and borderline-RP down-giving the people new to Discovery's style of RP (which is very unique-a DND player fresh off the boats wouldn't know what the hell he was doing for some time) a general set of guidelines they need to follow in order to be successful and help contribute to the atmosphere, which cap registration has largely succeeded in doing in Outcast space (as an experiment we took Reg off the Dessie and lo and behold, within a week we had four of them a day sitting out in front of the docking ring URing and Lolwutting all over the place, putting raids into Gamma several times a day, and not the same four characters a day. Expect it back up within a week).

Igiss and a number of the Admin team (and some very vocal anarchists) have decided that we shouldn't have this power. The borderline-RP state, to them, is acceptable, and that if we can't teach them how Discovery RP works with basic methods then we'll just have to let them be and disturb the atmosphere we're all so concerned with maintaining, on the grounds that a lot of faction RP is non-canon and that we'll be abusive, horrible monsters. Or something like that. That's how I understand it, anyway; I also understand it that apparently the Outcast cap registration (note that I say OUTCAST, not 101st, because it's controlled by the Council of Dons, not the 101st) is canon enough that the way we regulate capships is apparently in-RP and we won't be penalized for continuing to do it, but this is still confusing to me, and I'm very wary about what I do right now in regards to cap controls.

The other issue is faction sovereignty. Factions are given the opportunity to purchase a system in which they will have total control of everything that goes on inside, and that they can restrict access from anybody they choose. This is no longer the case, because apparently since the caps are inside Guard systems now we have to let the independents through if they have the correct tag and ID. This breaks our sovereignty and invalidates the purpose of buying the guard system for many factions, including mine (where a large portion of it is restricted military territory). This is putting the indie on an equal basis of the faction, so that "oooh! What does this button do?!" (as the indie is flying towards the black hole giggling and being an idiot in system as he flies into the black hole) can't be stopped by a "No! You fool! Intercept him, quickly! Ready to get the escape pod!" kind of policy-I have to let them run into the hole instead of RPing things out sensibly. But this does not apply to the 101st, apparently. Maybe. Possibly. Aaaaagh somebodyexplainthistomeagain.

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Quick comment - we thought that Panzer was the Leader, Swift. -Agmen

Which Dreadnought was that?

One of your nine.

[Caedes]

All House, Corsair and Outcast Capital ships are to be issued by factions/clans.
All House, Corsair and Outcast specific ships (Fighters/Bombers) are to be issued by faction/Clans.

I actually think that is a great idea (will not happen anytime soon for various reasons).
I mean, we all start out as Civilians, right?

Well how great would it be if we had to stay as civilians untill we have chosen what faction we want to be in and kind of become a "potential recruit", where they stay as Civilian, but have to prove themselves capable of RPing as a member of their desired faction, during this time they will only be allowed civilian ships. When they have proven themselves capable and worthy, they are awarded an ID and a faction that will look after them!

Of course that will require far too much maintenance and generally be unfair for most. But I can still dream...

[Drake]

I mean, we all start out as Civilians, right?

No, we don't, not in-RP at least.

[tfmachad]

Yeah, I've recently come around to the way of thinking that the best way to prevent silly cap-whoring is to limit your own personal use of capships. If you set a good example...

Answer is they all want to be power hungry cap whores themselves, without anybody to oppose them.

Both these statements are kinda funny in the light of the example used in the question of the poll. While bluntpencil's comment was more in the way of something constructive, ryoken's was... well...

RM is a fighter based faction and most of its attempts to control capital ship spam is for the sake of its neighbors (Rheinland's unlawful factions that mostly fly fighters to match us), which kinda debunks that generalization of yours, ryoken. It also kinda throws to ground your proposition, blunt. As even considering we mostly fly fighters, we still have our rogue capitals. So great is our concern with making Rheinland capital ship lighter that RM has completely outlawed BHG capital ship operation within Rheinland's territory while not only allowing, but promoting meaningful fighter class BHG operation inside (something that never really existed before).

I believe that the "urban legend" regarding RM's regulations on capital ships come from the fact that we, unlike other factions that regulate capitals, try and restrict ANY capital ships that do not belong to the faction regardless of a story behind it. The reasoning is that good and bad RP is subjective at best (even though most times you can tell) and we never really wanted to set some sort of double standard within (circumventing ranks for the people that are in the faction) and without (allowing some and disallowing others) the faction.

In the end, it all comes down to how well we can enforce that ruling. Both in terms of firepower, but specially in terms of having some good reasoning behind it. Some people have managed to slip by our clutches. Those were the well behaved ones. Some others haven't. Those were the ones who have made blatant mistakes regardless of our warnings (travelling outside of Rheinland with their ships, invading and operating inside of Sigma-13, assisting criminals etc).

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Meet the Kriegers - The story of a family and of two men that shared more than just a name
Fantasmas de la Nube Siniestra
I Mon'Star: The Strange Case of Elizabeth Wallace

[Linkus]

Starting with Kambei's post:

1. Because indie capwhore can harm their good name
2. Because players in oficial factiosn usualy work hard on their RP, ranks, player reputation, and want fun in their ZOI
3. Because if we have system of official factions, it is nonsense to have indie capships... why to hell ppl pay 500 000 000 and loose time with faction proposals and faction RP to gain oficial status if it is worthy less than used toalet paper?

1. If people can't tell the difference between faction players and independants, they wouldn't be too concerned about your 'good' name.
As other, more established persons than myself, have said - if a faction has a bad name such as the Bounty Hunters, the ones that do play properly stand out such as the S&D etc.

2. Why should independants, who often work harder than faction members (due to them usually having an 'inferior' rank automatically) deserve any less?
Independants also want fun in their ZoI and often have very good RP, however you rarely ever hear about the good ones, merely the bad ones. This has been seen countless times throughout Disco's history.
Faction's are in reality only a group of Independants themselves anyway, why should they have any more 'right'?

3. If you said that for 500 million you could dictate people's RP and how they play the game, instead of dressing it up as a faction proposal, then you would get countless number of people applying for it.



All in all ANYONE can make an official faction if they have the cash.
If the LN were to ban all foreign ships from entering Liberty tommorrow and 20 people with bombers, capital ships etc all disagreed with it and though it was OORP. Why should their RP be any less 'right' than the LN's?
Merely using the LN as an example here btw.

The Outcasts are a better example of things. Multiple factions in the one NPC factions means different takes on the RP of Outcasts. (Maybe not but it could be that way).

The Order debate is another example. You have different views on the Order. Some consider them to be behind the scenes goody goodies who do nothing to harm innocents, even if it could serve their mission better etc.
Others think they are roaming Nomad hunters flying around anihilating enemies of mankind and acting as the defenders of humanity, again saving innocents at any cost.
Others again think that they may do the above but would be willing to sacrifice innocents to achieve a greater good.




It boils down to this.
Why should factions, who have their own view on the 'RP' of a faction, be allowed to control other independants who may have their own view of the RP?

Why can't the Order attack Liberty? They are trying to get rid of the infestation remember and they can't leave witnesses, plus they may have no choice but to kill some innocents.
However they may not attack Liberty at all since they don't want to hurt anyone innocent and are just misunderstood.
Two different viewpoints but that is the issue.

If the 'official' faction takes the view of the second point and says the first is useless, then all the independants (OR OTHER FACTIONS) who go by the first are suddenly 'OORP', yet they think it is RP.


In regards to ranks etc in factions, they are subjective. I could create a faction and have 5 admirals and no other members at the start, which would make no sense really.
Independants earn respect, faction members earn ranks that are meant to signify respect.



If you want RP factions to solve OORP problems then you already have issues.

You do raise a good point but

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Facilitating the rise of robotics since 0 A.D.

[tfmachad]

The thing, Linkus, is that official factions don't really have "their" own view of role play per se. More than money (the 500 million stuff) these factions and their "own RP" (when they do have some blatant deviation from the original canon) have been and are always being extensively scrutinized by the community as a whole, through their proposition and feedback threads (not to mention random threads like this one, "X faction does this, Y faction does that).

So I retort the question, "Why independents should answer about their RP?" with, "Why factions should answer about their RP?" If factions are no more than glorified groups of independents, why is it that we feel the need to conform them to the community's standards through all the bashing and nit picking they go through in their proposals and all the hassle of the feedback threads and why is it that independents should be exempt from that same kind of scrutiny?

EDIT: The thing is that official factions are visible and environment influencing game entities because of their player base. Capital ships are visible and influencing game entities because of their size (and firepower). While factions are prone to capital ship restrictions more or less imposed by the community, individuals find themselves impervious to those regulations. While factions are limited by the whole faction creation process, individuals simply "appear".

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Meet the Kriegers - The story of a family and of two men that shared more than just a name
Fantasmas de la Nube Siniestra
I Mon'Star: The Strange Case of Elizabeth Wallace

[Snapp]

Im not voting because it dont really matter anyways but heres my thoughts about many of the things said here;

Rules say that factions can only police their ships when it comes to people without the proper tag/ID (doesn't say so specifically, but they do), not with indies of the proper NPC faction.

Ever since factions implemented the "Ship Registrations" any ship NOT appearing on that list is immediately assumed to be ooRP or a PvP abuser and was usually destroyed the moment a faction member saw them in space. Even when they DID have proper IFF/ID, until recently when it was made clear by Admins that this wont be happening anymore and if it does santions will fly.

Official factions have a duty to the area they roleplay in, keeping it sane, and a good environment for roleplay. If that means restricting caps so that -everyone- can roleplay properly then so be it.

I totally agree with this, the problem comes with the registration threads which make anyone NOT on the list a potential target for harassment or destruction. These registrations should be the other way around, you shouldnt be on that list unless you ARE the target BECAUSE you are oorp or a known pvp abuser.

Standing orders are to help them, not blow them up.

Good, this is how it should be server wide.

It will lower the amount of people who PvP (Hopefully)

How? Anyone can abuse PvP in any ship.

He then goes around PvPing everything he can find. Now of course we could sanction him, but that's extreme so let's suppose we don't. What do we do to stop a battleship from ruining everyone's fun?

Oh, wait! We have bombers. All we have to do is get four or five together and Mr. n00b will be enjoying a luxurious view of space from his escape pod.

This is called bullying, leave the punishment to Admins if and when the person does something totally wrong. Besides that, why would you want to give the PVP abuser exactly what they want, which is to fight other players, even if they get destroyed every time?

The main issue most cap restrictions answer if you ask me... Is Conduct, Not RP

Exactly, posting on the forums does NOT automatically mean a person is capable of handling themselves properly, even if they cant RP or write thier way out of a paper bag.

Of course I also believe if official factions are going to restrict and police capships, they themselves need to set a good example and actually RP their capships for once. Usually the only time I see faction capships are to fight, I never see them online just to RP.

AGREED! Ive said it before and ill say it again. If factions expect me to write a 2 page story about my capship, then i expect the same for EVERY SINGLE ONE THEY HAVE! Otherwise, its simply hipocritical, and not setting a very good example to anyone. My guess is they think that just because they are "official" that they dont need to have the page long info about each of thier ships.

Restrictions aren't about limiting peoples RP, its about limiting the potential havoc that can be wrought.

Accually, i've seen factions wreak more havoc against indies than indies could ever hope to achieve against factions. Mainly because factions CAN call in the bomber wing, do indies have a bomber wing to police the factions who dont have RP written up for thier ships? NO, how could they, they are called indies for a reason.

The primary reason I'm for restriction of capships is simple - some ships should not be common sights around sirius.

The order is a small organization compared to the other militaries in sirius. While the LN, or RM, or KNF, or BAF may have the resources and crew to man a few dozen battleships or carriers (even the corsairs/outcasts have enough people and resources for this, they're almost houses in and of themselves), the order does not. We do not have the resources to pump out an osiris a day from evora, and we most certainly do not have enough people to crew that many ships.

But most ARE a common sight, (npc patrols) especially the Osiris. Did you forget that the Order is allied to Corsairs and that the Osiris is also produced on a Corsair Shipyard, which by your own admission IS capable of producing large numbers of them all by its lonesome?

If there is no restriction put on these ships, we'll end up with the same situation we have with osirises now - too many in operation.

What gives anyone but the Admins the right to decide the exact number that is "too many in operation"?

"I hope you started writing your RP for this thing three months ago, because thats the effort I expect for you to deserve this ship."

Some people are simply incapable of writing the way or as much as you seem to expect them to. Does that mean that they dont deserve to fly the ship? According to you, no they dont, they should be able to write a book with thier eyes closed just to fly a ship and shoot some npcs.

I dont see any reason why people who dont want to put the effort in for the carrier or osiris cant live with a destroyer or gunboat instead.

Because they shouldnt have to "live" with a ship they dont care about just because you think they dont deserve it.

My three criterias to let an indie fly a capital ship are simple:
-He must respect others
-He must know the basics of RP
-He must play fairly

PS: by knowing RP, I don't mean that I need a three pages of RP for the ship... Just that the guy will play like his character should, in game... I don't really bother about the stories written on the forums.

Myself, if I was to get a cap as an indie, I would only write a biography and a small description. . . nothing big really. Because what matters is the way the player act ingame

Logical and within reason. The forums are secondary to the game and what happens in it on the server.

Factions dont control the use of capital ships.. no... the main reason i think official factions prefer that indies register is so that they can keep track of them so that they dont get out of hand.

Maybe this is how it was intended, but those Registration Threads were quickly turned into Hit Lists if you arent on it and fly a capship.

Problem is that with recent announcements by the admins, even if they do "get out of hand" there isnt a damn thing anyone can do about it.

As well factions shouldnt be able to do anything about it, if the player is breaking the rules, report them, simple, easy, clean, drama-rama free.

I am getting a little Fed up with blowing up in my train without warning from players who have a:

IMG Battlecruiser, IC IFF and Zoner tag.
Corsair gunboats, assorted IFF's and Tags including Civilain (ALL over the map)
Rhineland gunboats, assorted IFF's and Tags including Civilain (ALL over the map)
Etc . . .

Understandable, but it has little to do with restrictions and ALOT to do with server rules. They should have been reported and thats where yours or a factions involvement ends.

Which is also 98% of why I don't think that the community is mature enough to settle such matters internally nor do I feel that the admin team should be burdened with such concerns. Just do the best you can to raise the local bar of excellence, as Joe mentioned earlier.

If you want RP factions to solve OORP problems then you already have issues.

Exactly, on both quotes.


/end of my thoughts on the things mentioned here

[n00bl3t]

Well, it's true. Indies can buy whatever they want as long as they have a matching ID and tag.

Debate the choice of font colour to your heart's content, but what Patriot said and Darth_Chernobyl rephrased is perfectly fine.

Answer is they all want to be power hungry cap whores themselves, without anybody to oppose them.

I try to see other answers as to why they do so.

Since that's the case, does that mean you won't mind us calling you an egocentric, self-righteous, anarchistic, punctuation-lacking moron, will you?
The issue here is the 'they are not meant' part. We're disagreeing strongly on this, because the Admins can't do enough, and they hold people to a considerably lower standard of capship RP than we do. If I see somebody in a Sabre who's borderline RPing I won't take too much notice of it, but caps draw instant attention-they always become the center of a group of players (except in New York, where the caps and players are both ((not caps so much anymore, THANK you, Joe)) so thick it doesn't matter), they always draw the most attention, and they can lay down the most firepower, as well as draw the most fire. They are always the center of attention, and an uncooperative borderline-RP Battleship can spoil the atmosphere a hundred times more than a borderline-RP fighter, because that's what people look at. We think asking a few reasonable things of potential cap owners before they buy their ships is the best way of keeping the OoRP and borderline-RP down-giving the people new to Discovery's style of RP (which is very unique-a DND player fresh off the boats wouldn't know what the hell he was doing for some time) a general set of guidelines they need to follow in order to be successful and help contribute to the atmosphere, which cap registration has largely succeeded in doing in Outcast space (as an experiment we took Reg off the Dessie and lo and behold, within a week we had four of them a day sitting out in front of the docking ring URing and Lolwutting all over the place, putting raids into Gamma several times a day, and not the same four characters a day. Expect it back up within a week).

Igiss and a number of the Admin team (and some very vocal anarchists) have decided that we shouldn't have this power. The borderline-RP state, to them, is acceptable, and that if we can't teach them how Discovery RP works with basic methods then we'll just have to let them be and disturb the atmosphere we're all so concerned with maintaining, on the grounds that a lot of faction RP is non-canon and that we'll be abusive, horrible monsters. Or something like that. That's how I understand it, anyway; I also understand it that apparently the Outcast cap registration (note that I say OUTCAST, not 101st, because it's controlled by the Council of Dons, not the 101st) is canon enough that the way we regulate capships is apparently in-RP and we won't be penalized for continuing to do it, but this is still confusing to me, and I'm very wary about what I do right now in regards to cap controls.

The other issue is faction sovereignty. Factions are given the opportunity to purchase a system in which they will have total control of everything that goes on inside, and that they can restrict access from anybody they choose. This is no longer the case, because apparently since the caps are inside Guard systems now we have to let the independents through if they have the correct tag and ID. This breaks our sovereignty and invalidates the purpose of buying the guard system for many factions, including mine (where a large portion of it is restricted military territory). This is putting the indie on an equal basis of the faction, so that "oooh! What does this button do?!" (as the indie is flying towards the black hole giggling and being an idiot in system as he flies into the black hole) can't be stopped by a "No! You fool! Intercept him, quickly! Ready to get the escape pod!" kind of policy-I have to let them run into the hole instead of RPing things out sensibly. But this does not apply to the 101st, apparently. Maybe. Possibly. Aaaaagh somebodyexplainthistomeagain.

First sentence pretty much calls everyone who disagrees with Eppy an idiot. Surprisingly, this has been seen before.

It then continues to create an empathy with the audience by relating independents to cap-whores, supported by flimsy evidence about OC Destroyers going on raids. (Mine still is not registered and no complaints about PVP-whoring yet.)

Abusive, horrible monsters? No. Abusers of power? Yes. It has been seen in the past, from you Eppy. (You pay 100 million to me to fly this ship or I PVP-whore you. Awesome RP.)

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Anything I say is not intended as offensive, and to try and deliberately misinterpret it as such would be an attempt at trolling via misrepresentation.

It's not a conspiracy, it's localised bias. They're not intelligent enough to form a conspiracy.

[Jihadjoe]

I have one simple question for this thread:

Why do factions want to restrict independants when they are not meant to be trying to 'solve' OORP matters?

Answer is they all want to be power hungry cap whores themselves, without anybody to oppose them.

Bearing in mind I am one of the people who has started a cap restiction policy, in a place where the server is most heavily populated, and most heavily populated with caps at that.

Does this statement from ryoken imply that I did it to increase my own power? Or so that I could fly a cap without any fear of other caps flying around?
Thank you for being so remarkably optimistic about my personal aims and goals with regards to that... I see you clearly shown me to be what I truely am. A capwhoring, powercrazy, egocentric powergamer... :dry:

On a slightly less sarcastic note... My own cap roster consists of one gunboat, and a battleship and cruiser that are shared amoungst people, and only rarely see the light of day. I haven't used the cap restriction to solve problems with oorp, or for reasons of realistic numbers... I have put it in place in order to deal with the overkill. The terms of it very clearly state the reasons behind it, and so far no-one has been denied their ship outright.

this may well be a roleplay responce to something I find difficult ooc, but I think the attitude with which it is done is good. It has hurt nobodies roleplay, and has (in my opinion) increased the fun factor in liberty tenfold.

Now I can fly my lane hacker dagger without getting shot by a battlecruiser (yes that has happened). And many people's attitude towards how to conduct themselves has changed.

Tell me the negative points of how I'm dealing with this.

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