So, bases

[Zen_Mechanics]

Any hardcore stuff like Zoners attacking rheinland and stuff is a major contrast to their ID and direct Zoner lore.

Pretty much like declaring war on Zoners and Order, but somehow you feel this action is justified because they managed to pull up 4 PoBs to back it up. Quite the RP reasoning, right?

We're talking about a zoner system. And no, the Phoenix do not own 74 in any way, as I've stated before, 74 is NOT owned by ANY player faction, this is a fact that I've been told by the Admins.

Then why are you defending ZA this much, ZA, who try to control what they don't own?

And how is it sad that Zoners can shoot Zoners? You probably have no idea what a real Zoner is. Let me help you with that, a Zoner is a person that didn't want to live under house laws and regulations therefore went over to the lawless Omicrons to do whatever they could. A zoner, in no way, is required to be friends with other Zoners, at all. The omicrons are lawless, there is no government to stop anything, any person can shoot anything else, they just have to deal with the consequences, mainly the fact that the people they shot will probably shoot them back. That's what a Zoner is. And that's the reason the Admins "allowed" it, because there's nothing wrong with it.

And the issue here is that ZA tend to forget their weaknesses as Zoners. Piss off your neighbor and you get shot at, it's just that simple. Living out at the edge of civilization, striving for survival, and bamm, one bunch of Zoners decide to shoot at the other Zoners for some stupid reason? The key word here is "consequences".

Again, go check up on what powergaming is. That is not powergaming. Stop repeating yourself.

By my interpretation that act is powergaming, and if you fail to convince me with reason, it stays this way.

Uhm, yes? Here, let's do this slowly, so people understand.

>A zoner faction, that is, a Zoner can have any diplomacy they want -because they're basically independent people-, a group of them, goes into ZA, a somewhat large group.
>By looking at their action history, they seem like an aggressive bunch.
>They start building multiple bases near the holes, that is, the entry and exit points of that system. And not near just one hole, all of them.

It's kinda obvious. If people couldn't see that, well, that's just their incompetence.

Aaaand that's the god damn issue here, because people who chose to represent Zoners don't act like Zoners, because people too often tend to play their strengths and forget about their weaknesses entirely, and in-game representation of several factions is pretty far from their real in-lore numbers.

They technically can't have any diplomacy they want because most of the options they have would leave them to extinction. Omicrons and edge worlds are harsh places where you can't do anything you want, else you die easily. People out there really have to think twice before they act and that is what I don't see at ZA. You know, you neither see me being cocky with TAZ, CR and Bretonia with my Council Colonel, because that would mean losing a bunch of neighbours as allies and would basically mean the death warrant of whole Roussillon. I am fully aware of the consequences of my actions, and while I could turn the tide of events towards this path, I am very well aware what it would cause. ZA doesn't really seem to be caring about the inRP consequences of their actions. And that they have bases doesn't really justify how they act.

Again, the main point is to suffer from the consequences. It's kinda obvious. If people couldn't see that, well, that's just their incompetence.

Say what? Why the hell would a Zoner have to give a damn about some random people who think they're all spies and stuff?

Because they are god damn living next to eachother. You just don't simply ignore somebody living next door. Yup, that applies only to the Omicron Zoners, but currently they are who we are talking about.

a large group like the ZA which has the resources to build multiple bases, or any other zoner(s) with large ships or a somewhat large amount of ships?

Again, game mechanics lol, if gathering in-game resources would mean that much, Council would have won their civil war already by my powertrading. Your logic fails here.

And yes, you're screwing it all up more by bringing more retarded rules, rules are the reason that the server has deteriorated from a roleplaying server to...whatever this is.

Nah, it's frankly the opposite. Rules keep the server from total anarchy lol. You see, there are no rules about PoBs yet. And of course, you also see all the sh*tstorm around them. Now do the math.

Its not like you can force the admins to remove those bases just because inrp they should be dead, but in a way it does require rp story to match its.. actions, I agree on this one, but on the ground, until you take those bases out those ZA are going nowhere, and frankly I thougth we've been through this whole thing, but now the order decided yet again to continue this none-sense, knowing fully that it will spawn oorps all around, he may not haz the power to stop them, but he is responsible. I am talking as a neutral observer all along and I support both parties, so long as its fun and in the bounds of reason.. but we can't pick on the ZA anymore it looks cheap and silly, its no longer their fault and I think its time to admit that, do you agree?

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Were fools to make war on our brothers in arms.

[Highland Laddie]

One Zoner group telling another how to act like Zoners seems like a direct violation of 4.7.

Attacking a Zoner group for building bases that lock out a system seems like 4.7 working effectively, although that would also involve violating the ID restriction of not attacking other Zoners, although it does make sense inRP.

In this case, does ID trump rules, or vice-versa because PoBs are involved?

[GTB]

I don't know, I keep reading the ZA player bases being brought up all the time. It's as though nobody will be happy until they dismantle them. Have things not quieten down now, looking at online players last few days on forums, not seen many ZA online and that system seems pretty quiet.

[Govedo13]

PLEASE keep the ZA and Zoners etc stuff in ZA feedback topic.
Veygaar nailed it.
Base Balance/Proposals/Problems/Rules is game mechanic related topic.
If you have any suggestions how to improve the bases and their function share them but don't make zonerzonerzoner topic, there are plenty of those around- just post there.
Core 4 bases are killable- it is matter of simple maths- Cannon provided the numbers you just need to calculate how much Cerbs you need in order to start hurting core 4 base with all repair resources, if I am not wrong (it was loong time ago when I organised sieges and killed bases around Sirius,some numbers might be changed) around 35 battleships are required for the task. 1 year ago with average 150-170 players such sieges crashed the server. Now you have the luxury of average 70 people so the server wont crash if you bring such amount of ships to shot the bases.
If you fail in simple maths or in organising base killing force because your factions lack numbers then you need to be cunning and wait for the proper moment.
I managed to take down Core 4 base to 1% using only 3 Corsair capital ships 2xOsiris(note the lighest BS and one Legate) 3 people - it was long time ago when the platforms were not perfect but it happened. The base owners got us when the base was on 1% and wiped us out- they were mega lucky. We managed to find the said base without repair resources and managed to bring it to 1% in 2-3 hours. The base was under the plane near LD-14 forgot the name now. So you really forget or does not want to acknowledge the fact that some people invest a lot of time and credits to keep their bases well supplied.

General whining does not change a thing. I am all up to ask admins to make base rules and to ask Cannon if he can make the gun that I proposed in my previous post- from my PoV those 2 would solve a lot of problems. Try to bring solutions in order to solve the base problems instead of pointing fingers at each other because in couple months time we would get the next finger pointing situation.

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€œ

Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)

[Hone]

Make PoBs easier to build and maintain as well as easier to blow up. That way attackers won't qq, that it takes weeks to siege a base and it still stands, and defenders won't qq that they lost weeks of hard work in a day.

I bwould perhaps second this, and also, I would repeat, make NPCs attack bases, that way if someone builds one where they shouldnt be able to, E.G: near an enemy planet, the NPCs will at least hamper it if not take it out.

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User was banned for: Griefing others
Time left: (Permanent)

[Thyrzul]

Its not like you can force the admins to remove those bases just because inrp they should be dead, but in a way it does require rp story to match its.. actions, I agree on this one, but on the ground, until you take those bases out those ZA are going nowhere, and frankly I thougth we've been through this whole thing, but now the order decided yet again to continue this none-sense, knowing fully that it will spawn oorps all around, he may not haz the power to stop them, but he is responsible. I am talking as a neutral observer all along and I support both parties, so long as its fun and in the bounds of reason.. but we can't pick on the ZA anymore it looks cheap and silly, its no longer their fault and I think its time to admit that, do you agree?

Sure, nobody can force the admins, only as, the question is if they will ever consider the various concerns of the community pro and contra PoBs or not, and if yes, what their actions will be.

Also, you speak about Order doing nonsense, which is funny because all Order wants is ZA to cease their nomad material gathering operations. And it is pretty much within their agenda, so actually letting them get away with those materials would be the nonsense.

And other than that I see no other point brought up in your comment in the defense of ZA, other than "can't pick on" and "it looks cheap and silly". Consequences are consequences.

Ontopic finally:

//EDIT//
Okay, the main intent behind balancing PoBs is the notion that the system is imbalanced. It is clearly understandable, this is the very first version, and as such, it is not perfect. Therefor the intention of rebalance is to make it better, more perfect than it is now.

What is wrong with it? Construction takes a long time and a lot of effort and cooperation. That effort doesn't have to be maintained continuously, periodical shipments of building materials are enough, the base constructs and repairs itself as long as crew "commodities" are on board. To the contrary of this, base destruction requires constant presence, and while the two (construction and destruction) are both balanced to take equally long time, one minute break in the siege can lead to repairing the damage of hours. It takes to execute both a long time, just as it should, but the efforts are divided differently, and that causes the issues.
//EDIT//

Gonna list a few stuff I've seen around earlier, being proposed as changes in PoB balance:

• Give shields HP too to give pulse weapons some use
  
• Set repair rates lower, hit points higher
  
• Set platform respawn time higher
  
• Keep PoBs as they are, but develop a gun able to counter them properly
  
• Set repair commodity cost for platform respawn (I've heard rumors about this one actually getting implemented)
  
• Generally set PoBs easier to construct, maintain, destruct
  
• Set a limit to docking space

As the last point might not be entirely clear in it's short form, let me elaborate:
As of now, you can dock any amount of ships on a player base, effectively allowing such extremes as 10 ships with 5k cargo each docking on the station. Such extension of cargo space of the station make storage modules kind of redundant, and fixing this is the intention behind limiting docking space.

How it may work:
If the station is full, if one more ship docks on it, logs off, then back on, it will be dropped out in space.

Another list of proposed ideas, mainly regulations unrelated to gameplay mechanics:

• Restrict PoB placement via additional server rules
  
• Regulate PoB - player interaction via additional server rules (some may been laid out already, yet still not seem to be in effect)
  
• Restrict PoB construction and ownership via a lesser version of SRP

So far these are the stuff I collected from various comments as well as from mine. Anything I missed, tell me.

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[Soul Reaper]

@Thyrzul

Again you're showing your lack of knowledge of what a Zoner is.

The only reason there's a known "alliance" between Zoners and Order is due to game mechanics of having a single ID, nothing more. And again, Zoners do not have a general hierarchy for every single Zoner, they are in their own different groups.

And yes, actions have consequences, by declaring war on everyone, now their base is under siege, but then you'll bring up the topic of OP stations.

Again, game mechanics lol, if gathering in-game resources would mean that much, Council would have won their civil war already by my powertrading. Your logic fails here.

Err, resources as in player resources. They have the manpower to do it, if you had it, you could've made your 4 bases as well, that's not my problem, nor anyone's. But of course, you just brought it up in order to deviate from the topic, just like you did by changing the discussion into an RP matter whilst it was a game mechanics matter.

As far as I can see you just want to win an argument, and you're willing to throw out sense and its compatibility out of the window, just to "win". Heh.

Because they are god damn living next to eachother. You just don't simply ignore somebody living next door. Yup, that applies only to the Omicron Zoners, but currently they are who we are talking about.

I was replying more to your "they should fear them" comment, not what you thought. I'm simply stating that the Order has no real power, nothing big enough to scare anyone, especially when they're at war on two fronts, one with the Nomads and the other with the Guild Core.

quote]Nah, it's frankly the opposite. Rules keep the server from total anarchy lol. You see, there are no rules about PoBs yet. And of course, you also see all the sh*tstorm around them. Now do the math.[/quote]

Again, you're understanding my words wrong, I'm saying that people were completely ok (well, at least more ok) with everything back when we didn't have such limiting rules, a few crybabies came around and bitched about everything and then other people joined up because of, well, sheep psychology. The server (again, just in my opinion), was a much better platform for roleplay when there weren't so many rules limiting everything.

Anyway, if we can get back on topic, we were talking about bases which turned into an RP justification for them, which is irrelevant because at the moment it's an isolated QQ about the ZA, can't speak for the entirety of discovery.

Edit: Aaaaand you all ninja'd my qqing for on-topic..

Damn it.

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User was banned for: http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=114477
Time left: (Permanent)

[Govedo13]

Thyrzul you missed my idea to keep the bases as they are but to add base sieging gun that is expensive to produce maintain and use:
http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread...pid1363579
So both parties attackers and defenders must invest a lot resources and it also makes the sieges not so static and the defending effective pewing not only passive goods hauling.
Also summarizing all input seems good approach.

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€œ

Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)

[Thyrzul]

Thyrzul you missed my idea to keep the bases as they are but to add base sieging gun that is expensive to produce maintain and use:
http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread...pid1363579
So both parties attackers and defenders must invest a lot resources and it also makes the sieges not so static and the defending effective pewing not only passive goods hauling.
Also summarizing all input seems good approach.

Added.

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[GTB]

Talk seems to be that bases above core 2 are too hard to kill, taking too long and too many BS needed. So why not limit bases to core 2 level max. But the biggest problem is the fact base owners can leave multiple docked traders filled with fuel or other resources to repair base quick after being siege for many hours. That needs to be addressed somehow, not sure how?

But I agree on that one. It's not fair 10 BS can seige a base for 5 hours and then base owners can repair damage done in 2 minutes using docked traders stock piled with resources for repairs.