Detroit

[Zelot]

Not really the forum to discuss this on.

Detroit has always been used as the posterboy for urban decay. I guess Sheffield here in the UK filled the same slot when the steel industry went into terminal decline in the eighties. A sad commentary on the nature of capitalist societies (or more probably human nature. Other socialist models haven't done much better)

Sindy is right, because that means someone like me is going to make the notation that Detroit has suffered from one party leadership since 1961. It's not the capitalist society the you mention, Stoat - it's the progressive liberal democrat policies. You can continue to tax and spend until you run out of other people's money - this is a prime example of what the end result is.

The ironic thing is, of course, how Detroit was a political hot button in 2012 - with the commentary from Obama that he 'saved' Detroit from bankruptcy. Only to have it fail a year later.

What would be more relevant would be a discussion of how the media in England is reporting more honestly and truthfully about what is happening in the US than what OUR media is doing - including, of course, Detroit.

My lord you are a bag of freakin hot air Agmen. You take one example of a few to try to explain an over arching situation. You may have a case for your whole ignorant view were this to be the only case of a municipality filing for bankruptcy, or if all of those municipalities had a history of solely Democratic elected officials. But that is not the case, there have been several municipalities who have filed for bankruptcy, most with mixed governing parties, like Harrisburg Pa, and maybe surprisingly to you, some with a history of solely Republican governance is recent times like Boise Idaho.

Here is the problem with the way you make an argument Agmen, you look at one situation and then blurt out some half baked, universal truth based on that single incident. It's a shame too, because you are not that dumb, and I would think you would be better versed in how to make a case to an intelligent audience. Although, I guess, if you aren't really interested in the truth, and you are trying to reenforce a previously held ideological standpoint, than this type of post hoc argo procter hoc logical fallacy fits right in. In that type of thinking, you will throw out any information that doesn't fit with your existing viewpoint anyway.

Mind you, I don't know what the root cause of Detroit's problems are, I'm not an economist, nor do I think you are. I would guess that it is a complex situation that cannot be boiled down to a single cause, much as I know thinking about complex things hurts your brain. But it is. Now I know, it's so much easier for you and your ilk to demonize if you can point to one thing and say "see!" but things are rarely, if ever that simple. I know that makes it tough on you to formulate an argument with more than one point, but tough, you may actually have to use two three by five cards so you can remember what you were saying. I have faith though, you can do it. So, give it a try, explain to us how a history of single party rule in this city is the only reason for it's bankruptcy and how this situation is so different from other municipalities that have filed for bankruptcy. It will be a good practice for you. We can all do things better, I wish I had been better at insulting your inferior intellect in this post.... See? I can be better too, I think I will practice.

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[Agmen of Eladesor]

My lord you are a bag of freakin hot air Agmen. You take one example of a few to try to explain an over arching situation. You may have a case for your whole ignorant view were this to be the only case of a municipality filing for bankruptcy, or if all of those municipalities had a history of solely Democratic elected officials. But that is not the case, there have been several municipalities who have filed for bankruptcy, most with mixed governing parties, like Harrisburg Pa, and maybe surprisingly to you, some with a history of solely Republican governance is recent times like Boise Idaho.

Here is the problem with the way you make an argument Agmen, you look at one situation and then blurt out some half baked, universal truth based on that single incident. It's a shame too, because you are not that dumb, and I would think you would be better versed in how to make a case to an intelligent audience. Although, I guess, if you aren't really interested in the truth, and you are trying to reenforce a previously held ideological standpoint, than this type of post hoc argo procter hoc logical fallacy fits right in. In that type of thinking, you will throw out any information that doesn't fit with your existing viewpoint anyway.

Mind you, I don't know what the root cause of Detroit's problems are, I'm not an economist, nor do I think you are. I would guess that it is a complex situation that cannot be boiled down to a single cause, much as I know thinking about complex things hurts your brain. But it is. Now I know, it's so much easier for you and your ilk to demonize if you can point to one thing and say "see!" but things are rarely, if ever that simple. I know that makes it tough on you to formulate an argument with more than one point, but tough, you may actually have to use two three by five cards so you can remember what you were saying. I have faith though, you can do it. So, give it a try, explain to us how a history of single party rule in this city is the only reason for it's bankruptcy and how this situation is so different from other municipalities that have filed for bankruptcy. It will be a good practice for you. We can all do things better, I wish I had been better at insulting your inferior intellect in this post.... See? I can be better too, I think I will practice.

First off, who changed my member tag back to member, instead of grumpy old man?

Second off, okay - it's actually your fault, Zelot. Always has been, always will be.

(By the way, that's an attempt at humor, in case you haven't noticed.)

No, I'm not an economist. I'm a criminologist by education, and I've worked in the real world for a long time. I've worked management, I've worked labor, I've owned my own business. Now I'm in the third most despicable job in the world - I'm a car salesman. But anyway - here's the thing. You don't have to be an economist to figure out some things about Detroit.

Nor do you have to be an economist to point out you have a minor flaw in your comment above. It's not the CITY of Boise, Idaho, that filed for bankruptcy. It's Boise COUNTY, Idaho - which has a population of 7,500. And had to file for bankruptcy due to a lawsuit judgement against it, not because it was mismanaged. But that's okay - the inferior intellect is capable of researching facts rather than resorting to the standard liberal doctrine of simply spouting stuff off with no basis in reality.

And hey, here's why Harrisburg filed for bankruptcy. It's a trashy story, actually... and while it shows misjudgement by the city officials, it's from basically a one time thing that backfired - not long term and terminal incompetence. (And by the way, it was dismissed and thrown out - as was the one for Boise COUNTY, Idaho.)

What's synonymous with Detroit? (Aside from a lousy football team, that is.)

Motor City.

So what does THAT mean, from an economic standpoint?

Simple. At one point in time, there were a lot of good paying jobs in Detroit. What happens when you have a lot of good paying jobs? The politicians can collect a lot of taxes, because there's a nice, big, juicy tax base sitting there. Hey, they collect their monies, provide all these services and take care of the public - and also provide their civil employees with nice, fat juicy pensions and payrolls, because there's always going to be a lot of good paying jobs in Detroit providing that tax base.

Except that reality - meaning real world business - bit them the butt. Motor City said that we shall always build big, powerful, strong gas guzzling cars, because that's how it should be. Then some pesky guys created a gas crunch, and some other pesky guys started selling cars that got better gas mileage than the big Motor City Iron. That was the start of the problem. Ah, but things will get better, right?

Except they didn't. And the problem is - when the voters have the chance to vote themselves bread and circuses, they'll typically do so. Obviously the politicians aren't going to say anything - that would jeopardize their own standings. But you pull the tax base - business - out of the town, and there eventually end up being consequences.

For example, the unemployment rate in Detroit has tripled in the last 13 years, and is now more than double the national average. (And don't get me started on the 'official' unemployment rate versus the 'real' unemployment rate - not with what's happening now with part-time employees versus full-time employees due to the debacle of the ACA.) The homicide rate is at an all time high - 48 per 100,000 - which is higher than when the city was Murder Capital, USA. (Oh, yeah, that was Detroit's OTHER nickname.)

The town has lost more than 1 MILLION residents over the last 30 years. Instead of growing like most cities do, Detroit has been shrinking in size. But hey, as long as the politicians continued to act like there was nothing wrong (hello, you've lost more than HALF your population, maybe you ought to consider shrinking your budgets some) then why should they worry?

But hey, don't just take my word for it.
Here's an excellent story ... I'm certain you won't read it because it's a conservative piece that actually is intelligent and makes sense - so obviously it doesn't fit the liberal narrative that actions have no consequences, and you can just kick the can down the road forever without having to worry about anything at all whatsoever...

And you can't blame it on anyone BUT Democrats. Why is that? Oh, yeah - that's right. Detroit has ONLY had Democrats running that town since the month after I was born. So while there are assorted causes - the minor detail that FIFTY (50) straight years of one party rule should be overlooked when it finally came time to pay all those bills that have been kicked down the street like the proverbial can came do simply because they're liberal, progressive Democrats?

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Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.

[DarthBindo]

Clearly neither one of you has ever met the "proud" denizens of Detroit, or central Michigan in general.
They make those bloody flatlanders from Illinoise [sic, because the look on their face is hilarious when you pronounce it wrong] look downright clever.

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gone four years, first day back: Zoners still getting shot in Theta :|

[Oorn]

From my point of view (which is located half a aworld away from Detroit), poor administration IS the one to blame, with political system as an extension. From what I read, those problems acumulated for quite some time, and Detroit officials were trying to cover problems up, without any long-term solution. But so did the rest of the structure, it sounds quite scary that Motor-city (one of the symbols of the America) could come to such end, while EVERY person looked other way. When Obama claimed to have "saved" Detroit, did ANYONE, democrat or republican bothered to invistigate the problem? City was in not much better condition back then, but nobody cared.
That's how American situation looks to the outside world. If it was democrats who lead Detrit to its downfall, then why was it so quite? Why weren't there Republican politicans on national TV screaming about Detroit disaster? I always thought American democracy worked the following way: when one screws up, second begins screaming about it, so first can't ignore it. But now, to the outside observer, it looks that both democrat and repubican parties are VERY alike, while the president is there just for the show. No matter who is the ruling one, REAL decisions will be very much the same. To the outside, both parties are bread and circuses, just with different words.

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When "roleplay" around you seems to be diminishing... all you can do is be a new beacon of roleplay to light up everyone else's interactions.

[Zelot]

From my point of view (which is located half a aworld away from Detroit), poor administration IS the one to blame, with political system as an extension. From what I read, those problems acumulated for quite some time, and Detroit officials were trying to cover problems up, without any long-term solution. But so did the rest of the structure, it sounds quite scary that Motor-city (one of the symbols of the America) could come to such end, while EVERY person looked other way. When Obama claimed to have "saved" Detroit, did ANYONE, democrat or republican bothered to invistigate the problem? City was in not much better condition back then, but nobody cared.
That's how American situation looks to the outside world. If it was democrats who lead Detrit to its downfall, then why was it so quite? Why weren't there Republican politicans on national TV screaming about Detroit disaster? I always thought American democracy worked the following way: when one screws up, second begins screaming about it, so first can't ignore it. But now, to the outside observer, it looks that both democrat and repubican parties are VERY alike, while the president is there just for the show. No matter who is the ruling one, REAL decisions will be very much the same. To the outside, both parties are bread and circuses, just with different words.

Pretty much.

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[Agmen of Eladesor]

From my point of view (which is located half a aworld away from Detroit), poor administration IS the one to blame, with political system as an extension. From what I read, those problems acumulated for quite some time, and Detroit officials were trying to cover problems up, without any long-term solution. But so did the rest of the structure, it sounds quite scary that Motor-city (one of the symbols of the America) could come to such end, while EVERY person looked other way. When Obama claimed to have "saved" Detroit, did ANYONE, democrat or republican bothered to invistigate the problem? City was in not much better condition back then, but nobody cared.
That's how American situation looks to the outside world. If it was democrats who lead Detrit to its downfall, then why was it so quite? Why weren't there Republican politicans on national TV screaming about Detroit disaster? I always thought American democracy worked the following way: when one screws up, second begins screaming about it, so first can't ignore it. But now, to the outside observer, it looks that both democrat and repubican parties are VERY alike, while the president is there just for the show. No matter who is the ruling one, REAL decisions will be very much the same. To the outside, both parties are bread and circuses, just with different words.

Unfortunately, Oorn, over the last several years we've also had a political shift in this country by our national media as well. It's not that they haven't, at least since the 60's, had a liberal bias in general - they have. It's just that within the last 15 or so it's become blatant, and since 2008 the relationship between our national media and the national administration is downright incestuous.

You've got the president of CBS news is the brother of the Obama National Security Advisor, the sister of the president of ABC news is Obama's Special Assistant on National Security Affairs, and CNN's Special Bureau Chief is the wife of Hillary Clinton deputy.

If the media has already decided that they're not going to actually air anything that the politicians say if it could hurt the administration, the politicians can't get it out there in the first place even if they wanted to. That's why things coming off the internet now - and honestly, seeing British and other overseas media reporting - is so vital now. You guys over there aren't blinded and can still report what's happening here.

Detroit being in trouble isn't something that happened within the span of a couple of years (like what happened in Harrisburg, as Zelot pointed out). It happened over the course of 50 years of one party rule. We're seeing something similar happen in Chicago now, and thus the entire state of Illinois. It's in the stages of failing, and within another 20 years could be in the same situation as Detroit.

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Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.

[Zelot]

From my point of view (which is located half a aworld away from Detroit), poor administration IS the one to blame, with political system as an extension. From what I read, those problems acumulated for quite some time, and Detroit officials were trying to cover problems up, without any long-term solution. But so did the rest of the structure, it sounds quite scary that Motor-city (one of the symbols of the America) could come to such end, while EVERY person looked other way. When Obama claimed to have "saved" Detroit, did ANYONE, democrat or republican bothered to invistigate the problem? City was in not much better condition back then, but nobody cared.
That's how American situation looks to the outside world. If it was democrats who lead Detrit to its downfall, then why was it so quite? Why weren't there Republican politicans on national TV screaming about Detroit disaster? I always thought American democracy worked the following way: when one screws up, second begins screaming about it, so first can't ignore it. But now, to the outside observer, it looks that both democrat and repubican parties are VERY alike, while the president is there just for the show. No matter who is the ruling one, REAL decisions will be very much the same. To the outside, both parties are bread and circuses, just with different words.

Unfortunately, Oorn, over the last several years we've also had a political shift in this country by our national media as well. It's not that they haven't, at least since the 60's, had a liberal bias in general - they have. It's just that within the last 15 or so it's become blatant, and since 2008 the relationship between our national media and the national administration is downright incestuous.

You've got the president of CBS news is the brother of the Obama National Security Advisor, the sister of the president of ABC news is Obama's Special Assistant on National Security Affairs, and CNN's Special Bureau Chief is the wife of Hillary Clinton deputy.

If the media has already decided that they're not going to actually air anything that the politicians say if it could hurt the administration, the politicians can't get it out there in the first place even if they wanted to. That's why things coming off the internet now - and honestly, seeing British and other overseas media reporting - is so vital now. You guys over there aren't blinded and can still report what's happening here.

Detroit being in trouble isn't something that happened within the span of a couple of years (like what happened in Harrisburg, as Zelot pointed out). It happened over the course of 50 years of one party rule. We're seeing something similar happen in Chicago now, and thus the entire state of Illinois. It's in the stages of failing, and within another 20 years could be in the same situation as Detroit.

Yea, it was so hard for the right to use the media when they were in the White House. Right? How many of Obama's advisers have been convicted of a felony for colluding with the media to blow the cover of a CIA operative? Oh yea, that kind of media bias doesn't count. Only those that support your ideas. Evil lefty media bias...even though the most popular 24 hour cable news channel is most decidedly not left, and not center. But then again I suppose you think FOX News is "Fair and Balanced"? Yet again, this suppression that these types of things only happen on the left. The true sign of an ideologue.

And just to make clear, for you and anyone else that thinks that I am some flaming lefty. I think the Obama administration has been one of the worst in modern history, outpaced only by the one directly before it. But I try to look at any issue from all sides. I read both "Left" and "Right" sources in both the United States (where I am from) and Israel (where I live) to get the fullest view of the information. I believe in a Hagelian (and not Chuck Hagel) system of understanding, realizing that if I take the views from both sides of the spectrum, that the truth will fall somewhere in the middle. I argue with those on the Right when I think they are wrong (or not even wrong, but simplifying too much, which is the case here) as well as those on the Left for the same thing. The problem I have found, is those on the Right and the Left never seem to be able to see past their ideology.

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[Madvillain]

I hope you Americans will realise sooner or later that you are being fooled and have been fooled for your entire lives.
It's hilarious that democrats and republicans are so opposed to each other , while in fact both USA democrats and republicans both are far right movements from a European perspective.
I suggest y'all stop pointing fingers at ''the other camp'' , and instead educate yourselves on how to make things better yourselves.
In a nation that has a anti social government (one that doesn't care about its people) , it's up to the people to help each other out , and build something better.
It's hilarious that a system where only 2 parties can be voted for calls itself a free democracy.
I wonder how much longer this facade can continue, now that the internet gives access to free uncensored information to nearly everyone.

edit : sorry for the slightly off topic , but well I didn't start that
fox news is a clowns show , the idea that people take it for a factual source of information scares me.
-flaming lefty

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Baila Morena | Toilet Trouble | Elder Presidente[TBH] | The Titan Combat Manual | Confession
♰ Join the Corsair Brotherhood ♰

[Zelot]

I hope you Americans will realise sooner or later that you are being fooled and have been fooled for your entire lives.
It's hilarious that democrats and republicans are so opposed to each other , while in fact both USA democrats and republicans both are far right movements from a European perspective.
I suggest y'all stop pointing fingers at ''the other camp'' , and instead educate yourselves on how to make things better yourselves.
In a nation that has a anti social government (one that doesn't care about its people) , it's up to the people to help each other out , and build something better.
It's hilarious that a system where only 2 parties can be voted for calls itself a free democracy.
I wonder how much longer this facade can continue, now that the internet gives access to free uncensored information to nearly everyone.

edit : sorry for the slightly off topic , but well I didn't start that

-flaming lefty

Oh Joey, I will leave most of your post for Agmen, he will have more fun with it than I will, except to say, having lived in both a parliamentary system as found in Europe and Israel, and a republican system as found in the United States, that one is not better than the other, they are just different, they have different benefits and weaknesses, but they both have them. There is no perfect governmental system, there is just the least bad on in any given situation. And which is right for which situation depends solely on the situation, not the ideology.

Love Ya Joey!

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[Madvillain]

I am quite sure Agmen will rip my post apart and I can't blame him for that. xD
Nor do I claim to be a political mastermind , since I never had the oppertunity to experience what it's like to live in a republican system , I have an outsiders look upon things.
I guess what I really tried to say is two things.
Don't restrict yourself to following one source of news , it's good to look at things from many different perspectives.
The truth always lies somewhere in the middle , in a lot of cases there even is no such thing as a definitive truth.

The other thing is , loose from definitions as democrat , republican , leftist , right wing, I firmly believe that everyone on this planet eventually wishes for the same things in life.
The more a society falls in segregation based on political beliefs , the less that society will move forward simply because less compromises will be reached.
It's funny that in harsh times this segregation plays up, probably because it's easy to blame someone else for a problem.
I guess that's part of human nature.

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Baila Morena | Toilet Trouble | Elder Presidente[TBH] | The Titan Combat Manual | Confession
♰ Join the Corsair Brotherhood ♰