Negative consequences of moving best premium scrap selling points to Gallia

[Laura C.]

lyth why is it unfair? What do you mean?

Imagine some dev would for whatever reason change the price p-scrap on best selling points to 1 000 credits so people will lose interest to trade it. Then, when you would ask to fix it, people would say "you can use your perk to fix it, no?" Would you feel you should spend your perk (and create RP which is necessary to get perk approved) on something just because someone else broke it? That is what Lyth means.

---

On a ragebreak. Or ragequit. Time will tell.

[Laura C.]

So you are saying Sunday RFP logged in and caught a smuggler! Great! So when you say it effects smuggling in rheinland... i have yet to see the "lack" of smugglers being caught.

So someone logged and caught a smuggler and that means there is no problem? No offense, but how much time you spend in Rheinland, watching the traffic? Like I said, I spent recently several hours doing that on untagged char, that´s where my data are from.

My point here is that firstly, the majority of smugglers are caught by non-police IDed players.

I guess you are pointing at JM screens. I can only repeat what I told to Garrett:

Regarding Impy/JM and screenshot sending - it is issue I considered several times, but so far didn´t come to any reasonable solution which will work and won´t look silly. Like, should I ignore it? But then, I should ignore all screenshots sent to RFP, otherwise people will call we are biased. Is it okay for official lawful factions to ignore everything we were not present at? Because we can´t be everywhere.

I´m all listening for proposals if you have any...

This imo makes it easier for police factions since they do not have to log to collect money from caught victums. They can also choose whatever fine they want (in contrast to pirates asking for only 2-5 mils and 10 mill being far too much)

Believe or not, collecting money itself is not any motivation. And regarding fines - they are set by laws. The highest one in Rheinland which can be issued for individual on spot for full train of contraband is 6 million (and I actually even consider to propose to slightly lowerit).

Secondly, If there is a decrease in police logging in then OFC you will find less smugglers.

If you spend ten hours ingame and meet one smuggler (it was still extreme result, I still hope I was just very unlucky on this one), does this mean that magically it is far more better when you are not there? My current experience and other members of RFP is based on what we saw ingame. If we will log more, we will of course see more smugglers, but the point is ratio. Meeting one smuggler for two hours patrolling is bad result. Sure, I can log for 20 hours and meet ten smugglers, but that means that more than 18 hours from it there will be no smuggler to catch and this is not interesting for players.

I disagree. I will later on in this post show how changing prices for p-scrap or reverting will do NOTHING if you are dealing with a smart smuggler.

This is not about "smart smugglers" which don´t want to be caught. Those can´t be caught (unless I will go on hard metagaming and wait for you at exit of jumphole, though "smart" smuggler will not even enter system if he will see RFP tagged player inside). If someone is willing rather take longer route out of lanes and out of plane, I can hardly stop him. But there were always some who rather risked it through lanes and gates. And these are those we miss now.

This is an unfair statement to be made. You completely ignore what i wrote. the price to get to alpha was HUGE for a short distance. No one wanted to do any other ores! Do you not remember how bad it was and why it created such an uproar?

I don´t ask for overpricing of p-scrap in Alpha and Gamma. I actually ask to either adjust prices, or remove gallic selling points.

I dont mind that there can be a fine payed by the individual caught in game or their ship be blown up... but the pressure adds when you do it in a faction and when one person gets caught the cops then threaten entire faction FR5!

Those mythical FR5s again? I asked you and Fluffy to bring me examples of FR5s for smuggling last time we got to this, and didn´t get any (except for one case of probable miscommunication with FL-ER). And you know when we talked on skype after AFC member got caught doing illegal things in Rheinland, I stressed that I don´t even think about FR5 for AFC as whole.

What are you planning to accomplish from this? Exactly what? Do you think this will contribute POSITIVELY to RP health and your smuggling catching needs? I remember when smugglers actually liked to get caught and then challenge themselves to ease the cops to letting them go.

No offense, but my feeling is that smugglers expect that cop MUST be willing to take bribe when its offered or must believe every story/excuse smuggler try. Who play honest cop which not always believe smuggler´s story gets label "not willing to RP". Just for the record, I let several smugglers go even despite Carsten is incorruptible cop. They just had to be smart.

That's not the case anymore. It forces the smugglers to give 0 crap to wanting to RP or interact with ANYONE becasue ANYONE can be a snitch.

Snitch issue already mentioned above.

We are focusing on p-scrap. Why? What will that change for smuggling ? Nothing actually. Why not focus on smuggling ? why not put the prices up for Cardi? Why not have sell points in places other than Liberty that are attractable? How about having the same price as Manhatten in NB planet? Things like that.

I would love to have something like that. But you really believe that devs will let it happen? Cardi and Artifacts are now buffed to level where they provide just little lesser profit per unit than ores on highest profit sellpoint. Do you think devs will let any cargo from NPC stations have better profit than player mineable cargo?

While i am not an expert and karst stated that there is no relation, I will still say that giving the prices up in gamma/alpha will undermine other ores yet again becasue of how close it is. We will have a lot of junkers moving up and down and it will hit other factions too for activity becasue rather than keeping balance in ores we would rather make one ore better than the other. Everyone will want to do it to make the most cash.

Like I said, I don´t call for overpricing p-scrap (by the way, the best selling point now offers price 14 000 credits per unit, that is not overpriced?).

---

On a ragebreak. Or ragequit. Time will tell.

[nOmnomnOm]

Imagine some dev would for whatever reason change the price p-scrap on best selling points to 1 000 credits so people will lose interest to trade it. Then, when you would ask to fix it, people would say "you can use your perk to fix it, no?" Would you feel you should spend your perk (and create RP which is necessary to get perk approved) on something just because someone else broke it? That is what Lyth means.

Fair point.

So someone logged and caught a smuggler and that means there is no problem? No offense, but how much time you spend in Rheinland, watching the traffic? Like I said, I spent recently several hours doing that on untagged char, that´s where my data are from.

As nemo states too for smugglers the RFP got a good rep on hitting hard on smugglers....
maybe they just dont want to be found
but yes.. i see what you say

I guess you are pointing at JM screens. I can only repeat what I told to Garrett:

Not only JM does it FYI

Believe or not, collecting money itself is not any motivation. And regarding fines - they are set by laws. The highest one in Rheinland which can be issued for individual on spot for full train of contraband is 6 million (and I actually even consider to propose to slightly lowerit).

fair is fair...

If you spend ten hours ingame and meet one smuggler (it was still extreme result, I still hope I was just very unlucky on this one), does this mean that magically it is far more better when you are not there? My current experience and other members of RFP is based on what we saw ingame. If we will log more, we will of course see more smugglers, but the point is ratio. Meeting one smuggler for two hours patrolling is bad result. Sure, I can log for 20 hours and meet ten smugglers, but that means that more than 18 hours from it there will be no smuggler to catch and this is not interesting for players.

is all you do as an RFP catching smugglers? Im actually curious

This is not about "smart smugglers" which don´t want to be caught. Those can´t be caught (unless I will go on hard metagaming and wait for you at exit of jumphole, though "smart" smuggler will not even enter system if he will see RFP tagged player inside). If someone is willing rather take longer route out of lanes and out of plane, I can hardly stop him. But there were always some who rather risked it through lanes and gates. And these are those we miss now.

So you are saying that you miss smugglers that are taking risks and get caught by you.
1) Before that there were more until more sever punishments came along. Smugglers actually, and even I too, liked to get caught sometimes.
2) Smugglers are here to entertain you? Are there only existence to get caught??

Those mythical FR5s again? I asked you and Fluffy to bring me examples of FR5s for smuggling last time we got to this, and didn´t get any (except for one case of probable miscommunication with FL-ER). And you know when we talked on skype after AFC member got caught doing illegal things in Rheinland, I stressed that I don´t even think about FR5 for AFC as whole.

Not mythical, actually. You yourself posted such... if i remember... (and i can look it up) but the better example is that here....
http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=133233

And also the IND incident where they got caught and the navy posted a fine of like 500 mills or whatever "or else" ...

No offense, but my feeling is that smugglers expect that cop MUST be willing to take bribe when its offered or must believe every story/excuse smuggler try. Who play honest cop which not always believe smuggler´s story gets label "not willing to RP". Just for the record, I let several smugglers go even despite Carsten is incorruptible cop. They just had to be smart.

no... we just dont want to get FR5ed.
really.
I keep saying this.
I wish i could do chases and catches more often but I am scared , as speaking about my faction, that when i do give police faction more activity then my own faction will be FR5ed to all houses.

I would love to have something like that. But you really believe that devs will let it happen? Cardi and Artifacts are now buffed to level where they provide just little lesser profit per unit than ores on highest profit sellpoint. Do you think devs will let any cargo from NPC stations have better profit than player mineable cargo?

What? no? What??? they sell for 5000

---

[jammi]

Um guys. The RFP are irrelevant. Other than the fact that Laura posted this thread, they are literally irrelevant in the scope of this issue. Whether or not scrap runners fly through Rheinland is a non-issue. Please stop talking about the RFP and their activity because you're all detracting from an actual valid point: Premium Scrap is goddamn terrible.

The prices at the sellpoints that fostered the best in-game activity were nerfed into the ground as an ineffectual punitive measure and because big numbers are apparently scary (even if they're balanced correctly by route distance). Does that not strike anyone as immediately wrong, irrespective of anything else that's going on?

When you compare Premium Scrap to other mineable ores, the current state of balance really is inexcusable. As I said, the RFP aren't relevant. The fact that an entire swath of players are being handicapped by gimped prices that were extremely poorly thought out, is. That's the real issue.

---

News article library, feedback and content requests.

[|nfrared]

Voted no, because at least we have one reason to go to Gallia.

But the thing I really don't get is - Why the obsession with P-Scrap, like it's the only ore anyone seems to bother with? With the Omicrons being rearranged as the new frontier, why is there absolutely nothing to mine out there (well, regular scrap, but I mean really? It would be more interesting with a couple of pockets of valuable mineble ore, even if it isn't the best power-route or whatever. A sort of "danger pay" situation would spice things up nicely IMHO.

---

Shard - The Faceless One

[nOmnomnOm]

Um guys. The RFP are irrelevant. Other than the fact that Laura posted this thread, they are literally irrelevant in the scope of this issue.

Um... the OP started the topic relaying it to Rheinland, Jammi. Why are you making it look like we are only posting about it becasue Laura is the leader of RFP?

as stated in OP:

So, why I want best selling points back to Omicrons? It turned out that this change has very negative impact on smuggling in Rheinland. Before, we had lot of it, mainly consisting of indie junkers and freelancers, which were trading premium scrap mainly to Omicron Alpha (rarely also to Gamma), and on the way back to Liberty they smuggled cardamine (or artifacts in case of Gamma). This was one of the main activity sources for RFP, but other lawfuls had benefit from it too, as well as GMG patrols in Sigmas (and I would say also Kusari lawfuls, because of people didn´t want to go through Rheinland for this or that reason, they had to travel through their systems).

result is that Rheinland playerbase is shrinking because - to quote some of them - "there is nothing to do".

anyway....

The prices at the sellpoints that fostered the best in-game activity were nerfed into the ground as an ineffectual punitive measure and because big numbers are apparently scary (even if they're balanced correctly by route distance). Does that not strike anyone as immediately wrong, irrespective of anything else that's going on?

When you compare Premium Scrap to other mineable ores, the current state of balance really is inexcusable. As I said, the RFP aren't relevant. The fact that an entire swath of players are being handicapped by gimped prices that were extremely poorly thought out, is. That's the real issue.

The Best in-game activity for who, exactly? For Junkers? The issue that i remember people kept repeating is that there is little to no one stopping to pirate junkers for instance.
I guess other factions got good things from the p-scrap smuggling too but... it was mostly junkers because they can mine it.

Again can you explain please who are the "swath of players handicapped" by these "unfair prices" ??

Are the prices really that bad? really?

And also is no one going to bother making Gallic Cops? That's actually something I am interested in seeing still since there is ALL this talk about people selling to Gallia. So why have there not been an increase in gallic law ships? Well yeah I know why... becasue there is no activity right? But See... maybe if some activity starts to happen then more will catch on?

---

[Haste]

Profit per unit of time invested is what your average trader really cares about. In the case of P-Scrap, I believe credits/second is vastly inferior to other ores. As Jammi pointed out, someone suffering from large-number-o-phobia decided to nerf the crap out of premium scrap as its profit per unit (not time, mind you) was a bit higher than that of other ores.

If the old routes encouraged more smuggling and thus more activity, it's foolish (in my opinion) not to try to revert things a little.

Not sure why people are surprised that a faction like the RFP suffers activity-wise from a lack of smugglers. The most police-like activity a police faction can take part in is regulating/intercepting illegal commodities. Taking down hostile cruisers and stuff is more of a military thing.

---

[nOmnomnOm]

Profit per unit of time invested is what your average trader really cares about. In the case of P-Scrap, I believe credits/second is vastly inferior to other ores. As Jammi pointed out, someone suffering from large-number-o-phobia decided to nerf the crap out of premium scrap as its profit per unit (not time, mind you) was a bit higher than that of other ores.

If the old routes encouraged more smuggling and thus more activity, it's foolish (in my opinion) not to try to revert things a little.

Not sure why people are surprised that a faction like the RFP suffers activity-wise from a lack of smugglers. The most police-like activity a police faction can take part in is policing illegal commodities. Taking down hostile cruisers and stuff is more of a military thing.

Just a thought though. Is it possible to have other ores being sold at unlawful locations that have smuggling commodities to ship back?
Since you mean to say you agree to the effect that p-scrap did... why not do it with other ores too?

[Alley]

The prices at the sellpoints that fostered the best in-game activity were nerfed into the ground as an ineffectual punitive measure and because big numbers are apparently scary (even if they're balanced correctly by route distance). Does that not strike anyone as immediately wrong, irrespective of anything else that's going on?

It was nerfed because it was a metagaming fest up to the point legitimate Outcast indies were being cast aside in favor of a no risk quick and easy money scheme. It was switched to a GRN owned station until a suitable replacement could be found (and also to create a challenge for smugglers and opportunities for Rheinland lawfuls while at it).

It's really just a matter of too many things happening and piling up.

---

Alley was right.

[Croft]

What about some changes to the way smugglers are handled? For example we have limits on what pirates can demand of traders yet there is nothing on police/smuggler interactions, even if its just a bare minimum for fines or cargo demands (e.g. Don't penalise players for giving you something to do). Focus on making smuggling fun if you want to see more of them, leave profit-whoring to the miners and traders.

---

Jimmy The Rat | Croft's Feedback | The Rat Pack