baltar: its been said quite often - when a trader is being pirated, it would be silly for him to return to that route. - look at it from another pov. when a pirate is being interrupted by warships... isn t it silly if he doesn t go somewhere else?
sigma-13 isn t the only system - and while i don t know that faction your pirate is, i know that Clover as a gaian has plent of choices to pirate - and the gaians ZoI isn t really THAT large at all. - so if i know that some BHG battlecruiser was after me, i d pirate in a place where he ll have no advantage ( like tau-31 ). i won t stick around in leeds then and complain about overkill... i swallow it down and do what my char does. - change of scenery.
and again its quite funny. i have done extensive pirating on Clover and i have never faced an overwhelming BHG force. - of course, i do avoid certain systems that are known to spawn ooRPness - rumor has it that it helps a lot. when there is a problem - i don t point my finger at others first.... i try to change my own ways. only if there is no way to get around certain stuff i can try to complain.
edit: i do wonder what your problem is - is it the unfairness that pirates are not allowed to pirate in or with the assistance of warships? - or is the ooRP bounty hunters ( or others - since i guess its not only BHGs )? - is it ooRP traders that laugh at you cause they are metageming? or maybe the stupid rules that bind pirates to a fixed pattern with little freedom of roleplay? - the last post suggests that you simply dislike being swarmed by bounty hunters. - if they fly warships - find a spot that is located close to asteroids - so they won t be able to follow and fight you there... .
' Wrote:the RP reason not to pirate in bigger ships than gunboats is - surprisingly the same reason why it is considered "bad manners" to hunt for a bounty in anything bigger than a gunboat. - that is... if you pirate a trader for 500.000 $ ... that hardly makes up for the running costs of such a ship ( fuel/mox, crew, food, water, oxigen, etc. ) - so what would a cruiser do.... pirate for 5 million with the reason that he has to make a living? <-- So explain to me the cost effective role play reason for a bounty hunter in a battle cruiser defending a single trade ship? And explain the role play justification for 10 mil bounties placed on a pirate that only asks for 500k? For me to make 10 mil off of a single trader, I'd have to pirate him 20+ times at 500k a pop.
piracy is not warfar, its an act that is best done in the shades - away from the watchful eyes of the lawfuls. so a bomber or a fighter is much easier to hide with, to ambush others etc. ( a gunboat is actually a compromise made in favour of the pirates ) - it is assumed that a gunboats crew is small enough to justify piracy ... still. <-- Not disagreeing with you on this. And since I maintain a low profile ... its more reasonable for multiple bounty hunters in smaller ships seeking me out. Showing up in a battle cruiser just makes us pirates find a place to hide and wait till he leaves. You wanna catch a pirate ... you gotta "hunt" him down. Ever gone hunting for a dear in a tank? Bounty hunters should be "sneaking" up on the pirate and catching him off guard. This is the role play I'm looking for in bounty hunters ... but that's not what we're getting.
unfair you say?....
lets look at the roles and what roles the participating parties take up.
no matter how you look at it... the attacking player is allways the pirate. so once a pirate is pirating within a given house realm, he is not only attacking the trader as an individual, but he is also attacking the laws of the house. - so the lawfuls are defending their space against a pirate. - that puts them into the defenders role. ( in roleplay of course ) - the pirate chooses to attack the law and the trader, so the lawfuls must react. - and they will do it with whatever is needed to take you down. <-- Sigma 13 is not part of any house (no matter how hard Kusari and Rheinland think its theirs) ... its an independent system and there are no house laws to violate. Any house military or police entering Sigma 13 are leaving the jurisdiction of their house (role play in mind here). Which is why houses should rely on bounty hunters to bring the pirates in. I don't spend much time in house systems ... I've learned that when I spent time in Liberty ... way too much military might. So ... as YOU have mentioned ... pirates do so in secret ... and away from the houses. Its much "safer" for the pirate and much more "dangerous" for the trader (again ... role play in mind here). If we were pirating in the house systems, your argument would be valid. But outside the houses ... you're in the wild west ... a bit more chaotic and outlaws have the "upper hand" over lawfuls ... not the other way around.
that is why lawfuls are allowed battleships and pirates are not allowed - in roleplay. <-- but outside house systems ... beyond the reach of the house military might (lest they leave their borders defenseless and open to attack) ... you will not see the same level of military might. Outside the houses a trader is at the mercy of the outlaws and pirates. If he leaves the protection of the house ... he's pretty much on his own unless he hires an escort (in role play;)).
think of the roles - what happened if pirates strutted into a system in maybe ... a battleship and a few bombers....... to pirate traders. the sheer appearence of such a raid group would call for the military. <-- I'm not disagreeing with you ... IF the pirate is in a house system. But MOST pirates are not residing nor pirating in house systems. And a pirate would likely need a larger ship outside a house system because he has less opposition from the house militaries and has more freedom. Take a look at the Outcast and the Corsairs. They're well outside house influence and are a military might in their own rights. They aren't quite recognized as houses by the official 4 ... but ... they are comparable to Rheinland, Liberty, Kusari and Bretonia when it comes to military capabilities.
you are - in a way correct to say that the house space is too well defended. that is due to the fact that units that are not really participating ( in RP ) in something like hunting pirates still take part in it. ( like the LSF or the Navy ) - if they happend to come across a pirate, they might attack, but they would most likely not activly head to a traders help - thats the LPIs job. ( or apply it to any other house )
about BHGs heading to the help of traders.... if the trader offers them a reward, there is absolutely no problem with that. - if they do it for themselves, there is a problem, but its not a problem of assisting the trader - but its a problem of being ooRP. <-- That's because Liberty is a police state. The name is misleading. It should actually be called something else ... don't know what ... but "Liberty" is hardly descriptive of what it really is.
[ on the other side of the coin.... if lawfuls were pirating pirates, too - i am sure pirates were allowed to use battleships to defend their space, too. - but lawfuls do not pirate - so that point is void. when lawfuls attack pirates, its an act of warfare - and pirate can answer to that with any force appropriate anyway ] <-- Point of order here ... I've encountered lawfuls trying to pirate me before. Happened when I successfully pirated 2 mil from a trader and he swapped to his battleship ... flew from Tau 31 to Sigma 13 just to try to force me to return the 2 mil I pirated from him. Yeah ... gotta love that role play.
Jinx ... I think we're arguing pretty much the same thing but for two separate and distinct situations. You are looking at it from a pirate trying to "pirate" within house systems (specifically in Liberty). I'm talking about a pirate trying to "pirate" outside house systems (like the Sigmas, Taus, Omegas, Omicrons and the buffer systems between Liberty and the other houses).
' Wrote:baltar: its been said quite often - when a trader is being pirated, it would be silly for him to return to that route. - look at it from another pov. when a pirate is being interrupted by warships... isn t it silly if he doesn t go somewhere else?
sigma-13 isn t the only system - and while i don t know that faction your pirate is, i know that Clover as a gaian has plent of choices to pirate - and the gaians ZoI isn t really THAT large at all. - so if i know that some BHG battlecruiser was after me, i d pirate in a place where he ll have no advantage ( like tau-31 ). i won t stick around in leeds then and complain about overkill... i swallow it down and do what my char does. - change of scenery. <-- Sean McGreggor captains the Black Pearl and is independent of any faction. A true pirate with very loose alliances. Closest to green is Junkers ... but no IFF. He claims Yanagi Depot as his home. He has purchased a flat there ... and considers it an insult to see bounty hunters so close to Yanagi or the NB/Sig 13 jump hole. Equally insulting is to find Kusari military presence in Sigma 13. While he tolerates them in the northern portion of Sigma 13, Kusari that wonder too close to Yanagi or the wreckage near the Chugoku jump hole receive his complaints. He has been able to maintain neutrality with GMG, Corsairs and Outcast. While GMG do not mind Kusari paying a visit, Rheinland presence is not viewed as accepting. While ALG cleans up the mess from the GMG/Rheinland war, there is really no love lost between GMG and Rheinland. Thus, GMG pays very little attention to my activities near the New Berlin or Chugoku jump holes. Ok ... that's a big part of my role play. I haven't written it down officially for all to see ... but its more than any of these so called bounty hunters have to work with.
and again its quite funny. i have done extensive pirating on Clover and i have never faced an overwhelming BHG force. - of course, i do avoid certain systems that are known to spawn ooRPness - rumor has it that it helps a lot. when there is a problem - i don t point my finger at others first.... i try to change my own ways. only if there is no way to get around certain stuff i can try to complain. <-- I've made numerous adjustments to my role as a pirate in Sigma 13 over the many months (years) I've been here. I like to think my role play has improved. What annoys me and gets me on defense is when we get these noob bounty hunters and traders that attack my role play.
edit: i do wonder what your problem is - is it the unfairness that pirates are not allowed to pirate in or with the assistance of warships? - or is the ooRP bounty hunters ( or others - since i guess its not only BHGs )? - is it ooRP traders that laugh at you cause they are metageming? or maybe the stupid rules that bind pirates to a fixed pattern with little freedom of roleplay? - the last post suggests that you simply dislike being swarmed by bounty hunters. - if they fly warships - find a spot that is located close to asteroids - so they won t be able to follow and fight you there... <-- Its the OORP of the bounty hunters and others (like Kusari naval vessels) in Sigma 13. I don't need anything larger than a gunboat. If the bounty hunters would take it down a notch and come at me in a destroyer or normal cruiser ... I'd enjoy being chased about. But there's really no joy in a battle cruiser who can take my shields down in one shot and my hull in 3 more shots. With regard to Kusari ... stick within your jurisdiction ... its part of role play. If Kusari is worried about pirate activity in Sigma 13 ... hire a bounty hunter. As for the traders ... I can't really do much there. They're gonna avoid role play forever. But my biggest beef is with the OORP loopholing and double standards. I fully welcome bounty hunters to chase me ... and for me to order them to leave Sigma 13. But can we do this and have a bit of fun too. I specifically don't demand more than 500k because I want the trader to make money as well. I only demand more than 500k if they run. And if they refuse to role play with me ... I do as much role play comms with them as possible before I finally destroy them and take their cargo. Funny ... I typically get about 250k from the cargo ... and I only ask 500k from them to begin with.
Jinx, an example of being ganked that you seem blissfully unaware of.
i hopped ingame today for about an hour and was merrily pirating in S13. Lo and behold, a Rheinland Cruiser (police tag:angry2:) hops in and starts firing at me without a word. He's firing all cerbs and even a falcata with a bad pilot (me) can avoid him all day. So I did. and then a Corsair Huntress shows up. (Corsair ID/Tag). Do the capships shoot at each other? NO!!! They BOTH fire at me!
So then a trader shows up and I still try to pirate him. he jumps to NB and I follow...and what do I meet? A Bounty Hunter Battleship. So after blowing up the trader who refuses to pay (yep, I followed the rules while UNDER FIRE FROM 3 CAPSHIPS) I withdraw back to S13 to find 2 OC dessies. Which was really good for me cause I was out of bats/bots. Together we blew up the cruisers, and up to this point only the BHG had said something. the RH cruiser never said anything at all.
Now, the RP reason for the capships coming is; the houses and BHG are their enemies, so when these vessels come to kill their friends, they want to A) defend their friends and B) engage the capships far away from reinforcements/defenses.
don t get me wrong, i think i know where you re coming from on that one - but then again. - why sigma-13? .... its not like its not known that its not the best place to get some solid roleplay done.
however, the original question was if warships are allowed to assist in the act of piracy - and i stand to my opinion that they are not allowed. - waging war on them is different of course - pirating in the outer systems is a problem itself.
sigma-13 does not really belong to any house, - so self-claimed lawfuls do have a free roam ( but we don t talk about why they do it ) - a lot of stuff is carried away big time here. - of course it makes no sense for a trader to pay a hunter 10 million to blow up a pirate that asked for 500k. - but what you pay isn t inRole, but its cash you pay the player for his time. ( as a matter of fact ). - same goes with pirates taxing. - in a pirates role, asking for rediculous amounts like 500.000 credits is surely silly, - since a tax of something like 10.000 should most certainly do to make a pirates day. - still we get tax demands up to 2 - 3 million, not cause our role wants us to , but cause we know "that these greedy traders make so much money / run"
metagaming happens on all levels in all factions on all sides, - its part of it. people that blow others up without a word happens, too. - but it happens less in some parts of sirius and more in others. - sigma - 13 is most certainly a part where it happens more. ( and wherever a profitable traderoute pops up in any following disco version, the phenomenon will continue ) - if i do not like it, i try to avoid it. if i still go there - i know what i ll be facing. ( its like buying a house at the airport. people know that its gonne be noisy, but they ll still complain about the noise )
i do not have a char that operates near sigma-13. but if i had a dragon, i d rather pirate in kusari, if i had an outcast, i d prolly pirate in kusari, too. if i had a corsair, i d go to bretonia - etc. no pirate faction is bound to pirate in sigma-13, which is not only full with dangerous gasbags, but also with debris and to top it all with highly dangerous madmen that were once possessed by nomads. - no "normal" pirate would really want to pirate in that place. ( but thats just me )
what i wanne say is - its easy to point the finger at others when trouble happens, - but when you think about it, its not too hard to avoid this kind of trouble ( not allways, but quite easily )
' Wrote:GEEZ ... why don't we just make piracy illegal.
Admins ... just go ahead and end it all now ... just make a rule that says nobody can pirate a trader. Make traders untouchable like those under 40. That's where we're headed. Traders absolutely refuse to role play. They look for EVERY possible rule interpretation that is in their favor. According to mb52 here, only the pirate is supposed to be in danger. Pirates have more restrictions on them than ANY other role play on this server. And the rules just continue to get translated in the trader's favor.
There's just one additional thing I'd like to say about "your opinion." [color=#FFFF00]DOUBLE STANDARD
Sorry, but are you telling me that a pirate needs to be in a destroyer or battleship for the trader to also be in danger?
Sorry but, you guys don't need destroyers to pirate.
And quit with the doublestandard crap. You are telling me that only you pirates are ever in danger? What about when the LPI in their Liberators are up against 8+ outcasts, and a destroyer? We weren't in any danger? Cap[ships aren't needed to put people in danger, and certainly in the event of last night, it wasn't needed, heck that destroyer came un-invited by the other outcasts, he should have looked at the situation, and decided to just leave, and not camp fort bush. (like he did the night before to me, and he killed me without saying a word)
BTW- I have a pirate also, so I know about capships coming after you. The simple solution is to run with your loot, and your life.
Iâll carry this flag
To the grave if I must
Because itâs flag that I love
And a flag that I trust
Maybe I'll retract my earlier statement about cap ships being allowed to pirate.
What I want to see more of is battlegroups and speciallised ship loadouts.
But there also needs to be some sort of pirating available for the bigger traders too...who CAN afford to call in big support or who have uber shields and armor. That is where the pirating guild or some other faction can come in and contribute.
For every offense there needs to be a counter. And for every counter there needs to be a counter-offense. It's like a tug of war.
At the moment the Larger ships are in the main position, with the influx of new people who are used to PVP thinking. We need to find a way to either,
remove them from the cap ships, help them to role play their chosen ships, or other measures.
Same goes for Pirates who do not RP. They need to engage the traders more.
Same goes for Traders who do not RP. I was guilty of not RPing properly in this last case, because I was so shocked that a pirate would take advantage of me in that situation, and, demand that much from a low level player...i was only just over 32. But I was fair game, and that is how it works on this server.
But what happens when the trader has Class 8 armour upgrades and big-ass guns? He just laughs off the pirate. That is as it should be. But surely there is also a place for that trader to fear a bigger pirate as well?
It's always going back to the bigger guns thing. To me that is PVP thinking.
Sovereign Wrote:Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.
' Wrote:don t get me wrong, i think i know where you re coming from on that one - but then again. - why sigma-13? .... its not like its not known that its not the best place to get some solid roleplay done. <-- Most of my characters are either Junkers or friends of Junkers. That being said ... I chose Yanagi. Its FAR away from Liberty and is a heavily populated trade route (role play or not ... 90% of all traders travel through there at some point and time).
however, the original question was if warships are allowed to assist in the act of piracy - and i stand to my opinion that they are not allowed. - waging war on them is different of course - pirating in the outer systems is a problem itself. <-- I NEVER said warships should be allowed to "assist" in the act of piracy. I DID say that they should be allowed to "defend" the pirate from lawful warships ... period ... end of sentence.
sigma-13 does not really belong to any house, - so self-claimed lawfuls do have a free roam ( but we don t talk about why they do it ) - a lot of stuff is carried away big time here. - of course it makes no sense for a trader to pay a hunter 10 million to blow up a pirate that asked for 500k. - but what you pay isn t inRole, but its cash you pay the player for his time. ( as a matter of fact ). - same goes with pirates taxing. - in a pirates role, asking for rediculous amounts like 500.000 credits is surely silly, - since a tax of something like 10.000 should most certainly do to make a pirates day. - still we get tax demands up to 2 - 3 million, not cause our role wants us to , but cause we know "that these greedy traders make so much money / run" <-- Ok ... I'll leave this alone as its your "opinion" on how to role play a pirate. I disagree simply because you should not determine what the "other" pirate should demand. A pirate that demands 10 mil is rediculous ... but he's still within his rights as a pirate ... like it or not ... rules do not impose a limit to what the pirate can demand. So unless you wanna impose yet ANOTHER restriction on pirates to be codified in some non-role play rule book ... lets leave this one alone.
metagaming happens on all levels in all factions on all sides, - its part of it. people that blow others up without a word happens, too. - but it happens less in some parts of sirius and more in others. - sigma - 13 is most certainly a part where it happens more. ( and wherever a profitable traderoute pops up in any following disco version, the phenomenon will continue ) - if i do not like it, i try to avoid it. if i still go there - i know what i ll be facing. ( its like buying a house at the airport. people know that its gonne be noisy, but they ll still complain about the noise ) <-- Ok ... I take it you are also directing this at the traders who constantly complain about being pirated in Sigma 13, Chugoku and Hokkaido ... right?
i do not have a char that operates near sigma-13. but if i had a dragon, i d rather pirate in kusari, if i had an outcast, i d prolly pirate in kusari, too. if i had a corsair, i d go to bretonia - etc. no pirate faction is bound to pirate in sigma-13, which is not only full with dangerous gasbags, but also with debris and to top it all with highly dangerous madmen that were once possessed by nomads. - no "normal" pirate would really want to pirate in that place. ( but thats just me ) <-- Ok ... I do pirate Sigma 13 ... I won't dictate to you how to pirate if you don't dictate to me.
what i wanne say is - its easy to point the finger at others when trouble happens, - but when you think about it, its not too hard to avoid this kind of trouble ( not allways, but quite easily ) <-- I'm not necessarily pointing fingers as much as I am constantly on the defense. Take another look at the title of this thread ... "Pirating with cruisers nearby." Who's pointing fingers, Jinx? Certainly not me. I'm just puttin in my 2 credits.
' Wrote:Sorry, but are you telling me that a pirate needs to be in a destroyer or battleship for the trader to also be in danger? <-- You missed my point. the destroyers, etc are to "defend" the pirate against the lawful battleships, etc. There is no other purpose for them. If there's traders and no lawful capships ... I have no need for the support. There are some who have violated this rule by actually pirating in cruisers and destroyers ... but they've been sanctioned. But just because you're sitting nearby some pirating event doesn't make you part of the action. Its like saying a trader with legal cargo who's flying near a smuggler with cardamine is "himself" also smuggling. Just because they happen to be nearby doesn't make them part of the action. Same if the trader and smuggler are grouped on trade runs. Lawfuls can't bust the lawful trader with legal cargo just because he's grouped with a smuggler carrying cardamine. If lawfuls take action on the lawful trader ... time to file a report on that lawful.
Sorry but, you guys don't need destroyers to pirate. <-- I NEVER said we needed them to pirate. BUT ... do traders need a battle cruiser to avoid a pirate? Don't think so. Heck ... a couple bounty hunters in bombers would be enough to take out my gunboat. My argument is about proportionality ... a concept that people just cannot seem to grasp. You don't need a flipping nuke to kill a flea ... its over kill. The destroyers are there ONLY to protect the pirate from being attacked by lawful warships.
And quit with the doublestandard crap. You are telling me that only you pirates are ever in danger? What about when the LPI in their Liberators are up against 8+ outcasts, and a destroyer? We weren't in any danger? Cap[ships aren't needed to put people in danger, and certainly in the event of last night, it wasn't needed, heck that destroyer came un-invited by the other outcasts, he should have looked at the situation, and decided to just leave, and not camp fort bush. (like he did the night before to me, and he killed me without saying a word) <-- Again ... you missed my point. The double standard is that a bounty hunter can fly the biggest ship with the most vicious weapons and heaviest armor to kill a gunboat ... while at the same time ... the pirate is limited to a gunboat when pirating. My point is ... LIMIT the size of the vessel a bounty hunter can use when he's hunting pirates. I have no desire to increase the vessel size for pirating ... only reducing the size of ships bounty hunters can hunt pirates in. If you disagree with that ... then don't complain about the Outcast Destroyer attacking the LPI ... cause that's not a piracy event. Your complaint about the Outcasts is the same complaint I have about the Bounty Hunters. Do you understand what I'm concerned about now?
BTW- I have a pirate also, so I know about capships coming after you. The simple solution is to run with your loot, and your life. <-- Yes ... run like a trader for the nearest friendly port. I have done this often. But ... unlike a trader running from a pirate ... they've got considerably more powerful weapons than you. A container transport can do some serious damage to a gunboat ... but ... a gunboat will be obliterated before he can get a battle cruiser's shields to 75%. You really cannot compare the two encounters.
This post has flown in so many directions. The big boys can be there as long as they do not attack the trader. There is nothing about not doing anything in the rule. If they are running a screen for other big ships, they are not pirating. There also should be absolutely no reason for the pirate cap to fire at the trader. Yeah you can say self defense, but outside a Luxury Liner and a Contrans, how many traders can hurt a Cruiser, realistically?
As for the RP aspect of pirating, there is a failure on both sides. It is such a fast interaction till the trader is stopped that there is little room for it. I like getting the demand out of the way with "stop or die" because it is fast and dirty allowing you to weed out the RP'er and the cannon fodder. After that, the RP can happen.
I really do hate the traders who expect a service. We pirates are not here to be polite or to defend you. We are here to rob you, or kill you if you do not pay. Anyone Pirated by Basilisk has seen this theory in action.
The original purpose of this post was to look at a grey area that everyone demands is "black and white." It is not. If it was, we would not be having this thread. (A question that was answered BTW)
In the end I think we have to look at why these rules are here, to keep all of this fun. We cannot use a cruiser to pirate because it would basically be bullying. Not fun. It does, however, add to the experience to have that cap visible obviously waiting for some lawful friends to show up.
Ever think of how it would be to pirate in a dessi? How much of a chance do you think you have against a swarm of hungry lawfuls just salivating over the explosion your ship is about to make. I personally love the ability of a smaller ship to get the hell out dodge. That will keep you alive far longer than your 12 turrets.
That's my rant take it how you will. Just remember to have fun and keep it fun for the other players. I think that common sense, a good grasp of the rules and sportsmanship will keep you out of trouble in the long run.
When i saw the title of this thread i almost choked on the pedantic legalism of it....
Nevertheless...
This is where admin(s) plural should be stepping in, cos as of now, no one knows whats right - These kind of rule misunderstandings lead to confusion, animosity and maybe sanctions, but no one knows that, because no one knows what the rule is.....
My take - I'm following the rules - and right now it says a cap ship can't pirate, so i wont - period.
But if my mate in a bomber is pirating a trader and a BH cap ship shows up, then im intercepting the BH and helping my little bomber buddy....
Why? because its entirely OORP to NOT help - with all due respect to Jinx, (who i think is a champion) my capship is NOT pirating in anyway, it is defending a friendly vessel. And furthermore - nowhere in the rules does it say i CANNOT do this.
This was black and white to me before i even read this thread.
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