Rescaling the Kusari Destroyer

[casero]

Your argument to re size it is that it's too small, it's not the overpowered beast you are saying it is, ask anyone who has one, ask anyone who has fought one. The QCP has one of these destroyers, and we killed it with 1 GB and 1 Bomber, that's overpowered? Get over yourself, if you can't kill it, get more practice.

I'm going to tell you why it shouldn't be changed, it has no problem, and it's already like it is.

Now, you give us a real reason to change it, is this ship being abused? BAF are not killing many lately? Dragons don't kill enough of these?

For a purpose of Game play, it doesn't change anything, now if you want to change it for a cosmetic view, be my guest, but you are giving the wrong motives then.

If the Rogue destroyer has problems, then the title of this thread is wrong, it says KNF desotryer, not rogue destroyer, perhaps fix that one instead of trying to change this one.

This is tiring, people should have found a new ship to whine about so far.

I'm upset because you demand reasons to change it, when the only reason you have given so far is "it's overpowered", it has been desmotrated that it's not overpowered, killing it with 1 GB and 1 Bomber says so.

But, why are you upset?

[tansytansey]

The Rogue\Scylla Cruiser shouldn't exactly be the epitome of Shipbuilding, now should it? Given who it's built by in the first place.

It's not, you're right. But I'm merely pointing out that if the Rogue Scylla, which has a weapon layout rather similar to the Kusari Dessie, can be highly successful even with it's massive size in comparison, then what need is there for the Kusari Dessie to be so small?

As an Example, the Maelstrom has soloed a Liberty Carrier to the point of forcing the Carrier to speed dock to avoid being destroyed.

Present a good argument as to why it should be ret-conned.
Right now all you have is 'this ship is responsible for holding back the entire Cruiser ship class. Any improvements to Cruisers make the Kusari Dessie an uber pwn ship.'

Which Mjolnir said isn't happening in the first place.

Until the time that cruisers are improved, or changed in some way that affects all of them, it seems pointless to change.

I don't feel like repeating myself, so go back and read the rest of the thread. Or perhaps I can sum it up with this one picture:
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/9307/beforej.png

One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?

Did you guess which thing was not like the others?
Did you guess which thing just doesn't belong?
If you guessed this one is not like the others,
Then you're absolutely...right!

Your argument to re size it is that it's too small, it's not the overpowered beast you are saying it is, ask anyone who has one, ask anyone who has fought one. The QCP has one of these destroyers, and we killed it with 1 GB and 1 Bomber, that's overpowered? Get over yourself, if you can't kill it, get more practice.

I'm going to tell you why it shouldn't be changed, it has no problem, and it's already like it is.

Now, you give us a real reason to change it, is this ship being abused? BAF are not killing many lately? Dragons don't kill enough of these?

For a purpose of Game play, it doesn't change anything, now if you want to change it for a cosmetic view, be my guest, but you are giving the wrong motives then.

If the Rogue destroyer has problems, then the title of this thread is wrong, it says KNF desotryer, not rogue destroyer, perhaps fix that one instead of trying to change this one.

This is tiring, people should have found a new ship to whine about so far.

I'm upset because you demand reasons to change it, when the only reason you have given so far is "it's overpowered", it has been desmotrated that it's not overpowered, killing it with 1 GB and 1 Bomber says so.

But, why are you upset?

Oh for ****s sake. Read my thread before you post please, because everything you just posted is completely misinformed.

I HAVE NEVER SAID THE KUSARI DESTROYER IS OVER POWERED


Perhaps you can read that now.
Thank you, and Goodnight.

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http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv46/Ni...gcloudscopy.png
Image turned into a URL because it made your sig too tall. -Zuke
|Ashes and Draya's Epic Adventure|Ashes "Nighthawk" Yotaka|Nightfall|Eva Jones|
[5:50:49 PM] JakeSG (William Darkmoor) says: I like you, Ashes. You're more cynical than God.

[Zeltak]

Ashes arguments have merit, counter-arguments are coming from a position of self-interest - which I find to be lacking in merit.

And as for my own self-interest as Dragon Leader? I say resize the ship, and balance the ship as you will - we will still kill it, or be killed, according to our skill.

The primary argument is that the size of the ship is laughably small, the evidence speaks for itself, when comparing ship sizes.

Again, I challenge any developer to state that this ship would pass muster if it were a new submission...

Ehem. The only Kusari character I have (indie or faction) is a Hogosha one. The same argument is repeated over and over again:

"Re-size it. It's too unbalanced right now."

Whilst other counter-arguments as they should remain as it is based on numbers/statistics and experiences. Yeah, I never seen a number being based on self-interest. A number is a number...

And before you go crazy Ashes, I'm not addressing that statement towards you.

[Friday]

The ship fails the test of plausibilty. The size is absurd when compared to other ships of its class.

The primary argument is related to the relative volume of the ships. Balance the ship to give whatever advantage you like - but for it to be regarded by a reasonable person as a Destroyer-class vessel, it needs to be within the same volumetric class.

It can still be the smallest Destroyer, and resizing the ship does not speak to its turn rate - which is essential for pilots to make use of its forward guns.

Simply looking at the size comparisons highlights the absurdity of arguments in favour of the status quo - again, wholly motivated by self-interested parties.

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[Bobthemanofsteel]

Alright, for the sake of humouring you, I will.
Be back in a little while.

[Friday]

"Re-size it. It's too unbalanced right now."

Are you attributing this quote to me Zeltak?

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[casero]

My experience with fighting the Kusari destroyer is a long tale dating since 4.84. It has come a long way in terms of balance and credit is due to Mjolnir for his efforts; despite himself being the king of the Kusari Destroyer.

Thinking outside the box in terms of balance however, my main issues with the Kusari destroyer is how it has been determined balanced, which alike to the Kusari gunboat and Bretonian Gunboat, is mostly through a 1v1 basis. In addition along with this certain fad loadouts such as multiple pulse/razor setups have not always been taken into account; which changes the game due to the ships characteristics.

While most definitely the Bretonian destroyer can take down a Kusari destroyer, as long as the Bretonian destroyer has a good pilot that can make use of turning techniques, a good kusari destroyer can make a Bretonian destroyer's life hell by using a CD on a mediocre Bretonian destroyer pilot. When it comes to a group fight, say two destroyers vs two destroyers, or a bomber on each side, the kusari destroyer has a significant advantage; its size making it hellish to hit outside of a 'capital ship joust'. Another related issue is while bombers can indeed take it down relatively smoothly, the spread of double razor useage and the need for bombers to almost ram the kusari destroyer to secure a hit (which also hampers group fights where the fastest damagers win) makes the kusari destroyer harder than most to bomb. Basically; while it's balanced for a duel or straight 2 bombers vs 1 destroyer, it would not take into account the kusari destroyer playing coy and evasive in a group fight, there it has an amazing advantage with the gunboat size and the fastest agilty.

Another issue, which I honestly barely ever run into, is in the case of Battleship engagements, Battleships can't really touch the Kusari destroyer because of the gunboat size, while the Kusari destroyer indeed cannot kite, when it goes evasive it is futile; and going evasive can be done at a moments notice. Due to this, the Kusari destroyer is extremely difficult to deal with as a BS, most destroyers while naturally being able to destroy a battleship 2v1, the Kusari has a significant edge. There have been some cases where 1 battleship + 2 destroyers (Bret) have fought 1 battleship + 1 destroyer (Kusari), and while the Bret bs has needed to run away due to the fact it cannot touch the Kusari BS, the Kusari destroyer can generally do as it pleases without being touched by the two destroyers or the BS, in reverse the Bretonian destroyer will consistently take damage from the Kusari bs and destroyer while it tries to evade; in essence, the Kusari destroyer is far too hard to hit outside the joust at very close range.

While I've been yabbering about the Kusari destroyer mostly, the situation is the same for the Kusari gunboat, while the Bret can indeed beat it, if it decides to just fly around in circles the Bret can't do much; because the thing is the size of a large bomber. The Kusari gunboat, with razors/pulse equiped I have seen burst damage a bret gunboat quite badly, and then run away evading while its own shields recharge untouched.

My main points; while things are balanced for generic 1v1 and such, they're easily abused by various tactics and are a nightmare in group fights; the gunboat is the one that bothers me usually.

You have valid points, but when I think on Cruiser Vs Battleship, I remember 2 Siege cruisers fighting a RM BS, the siege cruiser is huge, but still the RM BS can't touch them, but you have a valid point, while the KNF dessie can hurt the BS at range, the BS can't hurt him back, but it still happen with most of BS vs Cruisers fights.

A high skilled BAF pilot against a mediocre KNF pilot? What if the KNF has a crappy loadout?
We can't compare based on people's skills.

2 vs 2, I've never tried it, but the second BAF cruiser shouldn't be tearing apart one of those KNF dessies? I don't know, I should test it. Can't give any argument here so far.

About the BAF BS 2 cruisers vs KNF BS 1 Dessie, I say it depends, apart from the dessie not being touched by the BAF BS, the rest depends on pilots' skills. I've used my KNF BS against... tic's BAF BS, he raped me, literally, if there would have been 2 BAF Cruisers and 1 KNF dessie, he would have killed me sooner. It depends on pilots' skills.

Any gunboat in a group fight with more than 3 ships is dead, ANY.
Fighting with 2 bombers a KNF gunboat, can be hard, but it's doable, I have done it with the MM. But mostly I say it depends on people's skills.


@Ashes: Em, sorry I confused you with Akurarw, heh, my bad. If this is for a cosmetic view, for me it's fine.

[Linkus]

So you want to re-size it..just cause it will be the same size as other ships?

How the hell would that help?

All it will do is cut down on the diversity of the mod, increase the balance work and just cause more pain for developers.
In return for it being the same size as ships THAT ARE NOT MEANT TO BE THE SAME AS IT.

Seriously, is this so hard to understand.


It is a small Cruiser.
Others are big cruisers.

Why change it to a big one simply because you want to?
The not so agile and small Scylla is a beast of a cruiser. It's heavy, it's got power. It uses it like a heavyweight boxer.
The agile and small Kusari Destroyer is a nimble cruiser. It's light, it's got speed. It uses it like a lightweight boxer.
Don't you realise that the reason why it's such a good ship right now at killing things (which is your argument for changing it, that it shouldn't be able to kill things as well as the other cruisers since it is smaller) is because of how small and agile it is?

Size doesn't matter, it's how it's used for god sake. The Kusari Destroyer is meant to epitimise that.


I say we size up the Dreadnaught to Rheinland BB size and re-balance it.
Why?
Well because it's smaller than the Rheinland one, it should kill less, but it doesn't!
This is terrible! A smaller ship is killing as much as a bigger one!
How horrible. Though maybe we should consider agility and speed.
Na, lets just make a thread to complain needlessly.

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Facilitating the rise of robotics since 0 A.D.

[Friday]

Oh, and as long as this thread, and others like it, are in existence - I am going to repeat this line of thought.

"Make the ship as powerful as you like - just make it bigger!"

This shall be my response to all attempts to derail this thread with talk of balance.

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[Zeltak]

Are you attributing this quote to me Zeltak?

Look pal.

This is what I'm getting from this thread.

One side, basically only Ashes herself wants a re-size for aesthetic purposes. Basically that it dosen't have the size of what is considered a standard cruiser/destroyer. (Please correct me if I'm wrong Ashes, since you don't say it's about balancing. Then what is it about?)

The rest who wants a re-size are saying it due to balance purposes. Now these people, who are saying this, have only presented one single argument. And that is: It's too small for a destroyer/cruiser and thus it's overpowered.

Now what did Mjolnir and a few others counter that over-powered size argument with? Well they showed you for example that only six guns fire forwards. They all stated that in a 1v1 the Bretonian Destroyer wins (can be tested) and they have mentioned that very small numbers of bombers/fighters combo can beat it. Thus proving to you that if the destroyer is DOUBLED in size. Doubled, do you realize how big that of a size change is?! Then it will be practically useless.

It's strength is in its small size, powerplant and firepower is its weakness according to those who are experienced in flying it.

Now, Ashes, I do not agree that a ship should be re-size for aesthetic purposes if it leads to major balance changes. Whether or not you are after balancing, whether or not you do agree its balanced, it will still lead to a definite change of balance if a DOUBLE size increase gets applied.