My thoughts concerning factions/Indies and other such stuff.

[Darkwolf475]

If the admins instilled some sort of structure as you suggest, I'd have no problem with this.

The problem is when factions take it upon themselves to act as if they are the admins--they aren't--and then try to threaten everyone who doesn't comply for not obeying them like an admin. I don't mean they chose a hard line rp and stick with it--I mean demanding compliance and threatening to spoil the game for those who don't obey.

That's what makes "indies" hostile to clans.

You haven't seen an indie complain because clans will not submit to his view of rp and play as he directs them.

People who demand power with threats should never have it.

I completely agree.


I believe that indies are pilots who chose to join the npc faction rather than the player faction. As such player faction rules/choices/guidelines don't apply to them because player factions don't have control over the npc factions. As long as the pilot RPs within their npc faction's role than who cares? And if the pilot doesn't than bring it up here on the forums and work to resolve it. Don't just declare him hostile and proceed to KoS him.

[BaconSoda]

Angelfire, in addition to being highly comical, you have also proven yourself to be very wise. Everything you said held the ring of truth in it.

I agree, Angelfire.

Factions, official or not, as they are usually made by more experienced players, should set a roleplay example to the newer players. They should actually encourage them to follow their example, give advice when they're willing to learn and help when they're having trouble. But it also requires tolerance/willingness by both parties.

The problem isn't that the factions are setting a bad example, though, it's that that some independents refuse to follow the example that the factions set. If they don't follow the example, they don't communicate correctly. In most cases, the independents don't communicate at all, and then people point fingers on the faction for not reigning in something they can't control in the first place. It's just a vicious circle of independents yelling at factions and factions yelling at independents....

In the case of the factions setting a bad example, Angelfire put it quite nicely:

...and we see those factions sorted out by the community unless the Indy took it upon himself to be the meter of his own justice.

I was explaining the 'two wrongs don't make a right' principle to my daughter the other day, and in the explanation I gave her this advice:

'Never give your enemy legal ammunition! Never break the rules in your quest for justice or revenge. For in the end you will tie the hands of those who wish to protect you and come to your aid!'

The Indy must recognise the authority of the faction and realise that if that authority is misrepresented in any way, it is the person, not the principle, that is in the wrong. Upon respecting the principle and reporting the person, you let the system do the work for you without you having to fight futile battles!

If the system fails you, you take it to the community and the system gets fixed.

None of this is possible if the Indy is reactive in any way.

(OB1 Voice) 'Use the system Luke!'

And once again, you're really right in my opinion (for whatever it's worth). Work with the system in place, and you won't have to do any work at all. Work against the system, and you'll day far more work than you should've....

Now please excuse me while I don my flame resistant suit, as I probably just caused another flame war....

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[8:32:45 PM] Dusty Lens: Oh no, let me get that. Hello? Oh it's my grandma. She says to be roleplay.
[12:49:19 AM] Elgatodiablo: You know its nice that you have all that proof and all, Bacon... but I just don't believe you.

[n00bl3t]

...and we see those factions sorted out by the community unless the Indy took it upon himself to be the meter of his own justice.

I was explaining the 'two wrongs don't make a right' principle to my daughter the other day, and in the explanation I gave her this advice:

'Never give your enemy legal ammunition! Never break the rules in your quest for justice or revenge. For in the end you will tie the hands of those who wish to protect you and come to your aid!'

The Indy must recognise the authority of the faction and realise that if that authority is misrepresented in any way, it is the person, not the principle, that is in the wrong. Upon respecting the principle and reporting the person, you let the system do the work for you without you having to fight futile battles!

If the system fails you, you take it to the community and the system gets fixed.

None of this is possible if the Indy is reactive in any way.

(OB1 Voice) 'Use the system Luke!'

I think you forgot the second part of the statement there as well;

None of this is possible if the faction is reactive in any way.

If the admins instilled some sort of structure as you suggest, I'd have no problem with this.

The problem is when factions take it upon themselves to act as if they are the admins--they aren't--and then try to threaten everyone who doesn't comply for not obeying them like an admin. I don't mean they chose a hard line rp and stick with it--I mean demanding compliance and threatening to spoil the game for those who don't obey.

That's what makes "indies" hostile to clans.

You haven't seen an indie complain because clans will not submit to his view of rp and play as he directs them.

People who demand power with threats should never have it.

/signed.

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Anything I say is not intended as offensive, and to try and deliberately misinterpret it as such would be an attempt at trolling via misrepresentation.

It's not a conspiracy, it's localised bias. They're not intelligent enough to form a conspiracy.

[Praetyre]

I completely agree.
I believe that indies are pilots who chose to join the npc faction rather than the player faction. As such player faction rules/choices/guidelines don't apply to them because player factions don't have control over the npc factions. As long as the pilot RPs within their npc faction's role than who cares? And if the pilot doesn't than bring it up here on the forums and work to resolve it. Don't just declare him hostile and proceed to KoS him.

For factions like criminals, corporations, Zoners, yes. But for factions like the LN and RM, no. They are all led by a single body and/or leader. There cannot possibly been an "LN who is not part of the LN" or "RM who is not part of the RM" under logic.

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[Thexare]

I'm tired of people from either side - especially prevalent among independents, unfortunately - being completely unwilling to listen to those they perceive as their enemies.

EDIT: Better make it clear: this is a response to the topic in general, NOT to Praetyre.

[Reverend Del]

Actually The LR is a full faction, we claim sovereignty over the entire liberty Rogues, we have a presence on every base to account for this. However all I ask from the indies is that they rspect the landing protocols fo Buffalo and Alcatraz (No cpaships to be docked there) and that when they group with members of the lR they are willing to listen to commands.

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Saint Del is considered a holy healer of diseases of children, but also as a protector of cattle.

[Unseelie]

I believe the admins are here to enforce the rules, which allow for what the Factions do, in most cases. The factions, being more powerful, enforce their will on the indies, if they so desire. Generaly, the factions leave the indies alone, but there's nothing in the rules to prevent them from beating up on an indie. It is not the best way to do things, but at the very core of disco, we've a system that is being forced into something it is not, as Gronath has expounded upon, and a pvp core means that we will essentially have a law of the jungle. But of course, guns are only the most basic form of diplomacy, and hence the forum politics, our way of enforcing our will without shooting. Its not so much about power hungry maniacs as it is people, on every side, who think disco should be thus and such a way, and are trying to make it so.

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[n00bl3t]

The problem arises when the leaders of the country are roleplayed. Otherwise each and every ID'd but non-tagged member of a military is no more independent than those who are tagged.

It's meta-gaming through and through...

Edit:

I'm tired of people from either side - especially prevalent among independents, unfortunately - being completely unwilling to listen to those they perceive as their enemies.

Hmm. It'd be nice for both sides to listen.

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Anything I say is not intended as offensive, and to try and deliberately misinterpret it as such would be an attempt at trolling via misrepresentation.

It's not a conspiracy, it's localised bias. They're not intelligent enough to form a conspiracy.

[kingvaillant]

Thing is, most indie, as well as some factions (however it is much more rare since they are a whole of players willing to do something big for a whole) only perceive what is surrounding them from the 1st person
"ME, MY SHIP, MY INDEPENDENCE!"


Most of them, don't realize the problems some factions are facing due to some of them. For example, Liberty factions must pay for the OORPness of some players ( PVP gets turned off), Corsairs space is overcrowded and full of caps unbalancing fights, then their enemies whine because they always fight in an unfair environment. What most indies don't realize is that, FACTIONS ARE RESPONSIBLE OF INDIES AND THEIR DECISIONS; They do something wrong, faction pays for it and nothing really happen to the indy most of the time. That is one of the reasons why factions try to keep the number of indies small.

This is why I dislike having a lots of indies in NY, An Indie, to fly a capital ship, SHOULD first deserve it! Not just go to the shipyard and BUY it!

That is my 2 cents

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Director of the Liberty Security Force: Fidelity, Bravery and Integrity

The Amundsen Zone-21 Restrictions

[worldstrider]

What was said above was the simplicity of it: Don't make a faction and then design your lead character to be "head of the navy".

Be head of your division or flotilla or squadron or wing.

Being official doesn't mean dictating de facto policy for all players who have a char in that faction.

There should be simply:

1) Independent 'commands' as I generally described above.
2) A uniform code of conduct and law that is a 'server rule' and applies to all who play in that faction.

There is no reason why a Kusari or Liberty or whatever Codex can't be proposed and voted on by members of a faction and then it is "law".

Instead of one faction saying, "We say so, we've been here longer and are bigger than you and will beat you up, discredit and mass flame you if you don't do what we say."

There are no independents or factions--there are players. Every one of them should have an equal say.

If the lawmaking was a "coded" process here and someone wanted a "Commander in Chief", then you could have an election and elect one. Instead of grabbing it and saying, "I am one, I don't need your approval."

The only reason not to have an amicable or democratic process here and for factions to insist they have the dominant say is that they don't trust the other players.

So why would those other players seem to have an attitude? Mistrust is not exactly the basis for "fun".

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