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  Discovery Gaming Community Discovery General Discovery RP 24/7 General Discussions
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Battleships- a solution

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Poll: Should battleships become faction ONLY, allowing to upgrade and make battleships more unique?
You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Yes- Make battleships Faction only, and Indy's fly BC or lower
14.81%
28 14.81%
Yes- Make battleships Factional, but also allow well RP'd and well known players to purchase and keep their battleships as independants
44.44%
84 44.44%
No- Leave the current system of buying and flying battleships
20.11%
38 20.11%
No- However, official factions can petition to get it removed if misused
17.99%
34 17.99%
Other- Please explain
2.65%
5 2.65%
Total 189 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

Pages (19): « Previous 1 … 15 16 17 18 19 Next »
Battleships- a solution
Offline Panzer
09-04-2009, 12:10 PM,
#161
Man of iron, blood and Nyxes
Posts: 3,092
Threads: 56
Joined: Dec 2006

Powah to zhe Fakshunz!

[Image: Vxqj04i.gif]
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Offline Ceoran
09-04-2009, 12:20 PM,
#162
Member
Posts: 1,867
Threads: 34
Joined: Sep 2008

' Wrote:The problem there is that the FORUM members, do not accurately represent those who do not come to the forums. THOSE people, even if they are part of an NPC faction, ARE independents. These forums have never accurately represented them, and they never will. Polls are lopsided to those who care enough to vote. Most polls, most opinion fests have on average about 100-150 votes. And there are for sure a hell of a lot more Official Discovery Server Players than 150.

Here comes the big bad real life comparison: If you are living in a country with a democratic government, then there will be elections every now and then. If you don't use your rights and actually really vote for someone you shouldn't complain afterwards if they won't do the job like you would like them to. You screwed up yourself, you and all the others who didn't care about. You might have done something to prevent it, but you didn't.
This part is obviously not about you, but about those who don't care.

' Wrote:There are many people like me, who just want to play. We don't have a lot of time.
I don't have 3-5 weeks/months of waiting for other people to get their A into G, about a simple request to fly a ship. And then it might get turned down simply because that person has a grudge against me because my avatar hurts their eyes. OR I might have AI onboard as crew, but the faction (leader) doesn't accept that because it goes against how a ship [SHOULD BE] roleplayed. That is roleplay dictation by one PERSON, to another PERSON. IT is an OORP judgement based on feelings and emotions.

I don't have that much time either. But if you are going for a battleship you will have to trade a lot anyways to get it. Why not write your request first and then trade for it while it's getting reviewed? And if it gets rejected you can always talk to the people and ask them how to improve your rp. But if you really think it's based on a personal grudge: carry it on to the admins, I'm sure they can help you.

' Wrote:Why stop at battleships?
Why not do the all capital ships, Gunboats and above?
Then someone will say, Why stop there? Why not make all BOMBERS, tied to a faction. Then it will be all VERY HEAVY FIGHTERS.
Because there IS no reason to stop there, only at Battleships. Because the problem is not the ships. It is the players, and those players are in every type of ship.

I think we already agreed that there are problematic players in every type of ship. But the point is they are easier to get back in line if they are in something small than if they are in a big ship and you only in a small fighter trying to tell them what they are doing wrong. We just had a nice example in the other Thread when someone stated that he's a Fleet Admiral now because he has a LABC and wouldn't need to answer to anyone in a smaller vessel. I won't call the name, but I'm sure it's obvious who I'm talking about.

[Image: signaturr.gif]
My Stories Outcast laws and structures Join Samura|-
' Wrote:Go play the game, within the given limitations. That is how role play games are played. Not by trying to work around those limitations or whining about them.
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Offline Jinx
09-04-2009, 12:23 PM,
#163
skipasmiður
Posts: 7,685
Threads: 313
Joined: Sep 2007

the problem with petitioning an abuse is - in a way a system of reputations.



what it lacks is being objective. - that is not that people do not try or have no ambition to be objective - its just that there are mechanisms that are in the way.

what such a system does primarily is to create two classes of players. - one that can petition and complain, another that is complained about. - ( unless the system provides sufficient mechanism that an independent can in the very same way petition a facition owned battleship to be taken away - AND have the same chances provided the same evidence is provided ! )

on a more subtle level, it creates smugness ( if the above is not fulfilled ) - one group feeling / or being - more immune to repercussions of abuse, the other one more vulnerable.

too often i heard from official factions ( especialy those with a so called "high standard" of roleplay - the term "because we can" or "we do what we want" - when presented with critizism ) - that doesn t mean that the critizism was always just or fair, but the answer surely reaked of way too much self rightousness and a feeling of immunity to critizism - all in all a bad show.

mind, i heard the same from non-factionized people. - but as factions like to point out, they not only claim higher standards but also act according to that claim. ( acting up to the claim, not to the practice of it )




then there is a very dangerous problem with the "reputation" and "being a good buddy" - as one might call it. - there are simply players that a faction is MUCH MUCH more reluctant to petition for an abuse than others. - these can be veteran players - or players that it would be highly "unpopular" to petition for an abuse.

at the same time - players with less reputation or a bad reputation are petitioned for less without hesitation. such mechanisms happen unconsciously most of the time.

some "deals" are done hidden behind the scenes in skype. - stating "alright - he messed up, but we cleared it all up in skype ... and we re good friends again" - thats cool - but does the no-name john doe gets the same chance? - to "clear things up in skype with his buddies"? or does he go straight for the petition.

thats the areas where things become unfair.




if you truely think that the suggested system makes the server a "better place" and that things are as "fair" or "unfair" as they are now... or even much better. then you can petition for it to igiss to agree with it.

but if things become worse - i wonder if you d stand to your mistake - or even apologize to those that became victim of the system... cause there will be victims.

of course - even now we have victims. - those that claim to have become victims of the bad RPers in large and powerful ships - and no one apologizes to them either.

but the difference is - when players started disco, they started disco at a certain state of freedom. - so when "you" ( you = anyone that complains ) started, you knew what was coming... all the good and all the bad sides.
when we change things drasticly - we change the conditions. - and players that started here in a state of freedom see their enviroment change to a state that they did not "agree" on when they started.

yes - change has to start somewhere and at some time in order to actually change anything. - so why not start fair... :

"With the system I would like to introduce, the faction would NOT be able to restrict the purchase of capital ships. They would ONLY be able to petition the admin team to have someone's cap-flying rights removed, AFTER that individual had been shown to be screwing up. Adaquate proof would have to be shown." ( JihadJoe )

here is how it would look when it was fairer:

"With the system i would like to introduce , a player would NOT be able to restrict the purchase of capital ships. They would ONLY be able to petition the admin team to have someone's cap-flying rights removed, AFTER that player had been shown to be screwing up. Adaquate proof would have to be shown."

just a few words change a one sided statement to a fair one. - each player is treated as what he is.. - a player.

at no time, the term "faction" or "individual" is written down. - a player with a warship is a player with a warship. - it is not a faction player with a warship and an individual player with a warship. hold factions no less but also no more responsible for what they do - as much as you hold non-factionized players responsible.

a faction player that petitions has as many rights to petition as a non-factionized player. - cause after all... just cause we want factions to uphold a higher RP standard doesn t mean they do.

and even with this altered statement... the problem stated above ( buddy system / bias ) remains.

[Image: just_a_signature_by_sjrarj-d63yjsx.png]
Shipdesigns made for DiscoveryGC
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Offline chovynz
09-04-2009, 01:18 PM,
#164
Member
Posts: 2,023
Threads: 79
Joined: Apr 2008

See this is the thing. Jinx so easily puts into words why I've been trying to say for the last year.

Everyone, is an individual. Every player is an independent. Factions are made up of groups of independents. No one is holding you here. No one is chaining you to the desk and forcing you to play freelancer. That works both ways.

Things already are quite restricted. Factions (groups of independents, gathered under one banner, with one goal and purpose - usually) are required to act and set a BETTER example. But the fact of teh matter is "factioned" people still act as if they were independent. Because they ARE, since no0one can force them to play a certain way. So the "problem people" are in every faction, are in every ship type, are in every space area.

THIS is the problem that has plagued Disco from it's early days. This is an open free private server, where you can come or leave as you please. People forget that they do not own it. They forget they are visitors to teh server and so, think they can do as they like. And demand for what they want.

The ONLY, Rule (line/benchmark) we have is the server rules. Common sense should be a major part of one's playing of a role. There is much, much extent to what that is. One person, or groups of persons should not restrict what is possible by another person.

UNLESS that person is teh server owner. But Igiss will not move on this, so we are stuck on going back and forth like little manual carriage pushers, wondering what is going on.
"I want it my way"
"No, I want it my way!"
"Wah he did it."
"Wah He's not playing fair."

Until Igiss steps in and says "This is what is going to happen" then people bicker and argue about the stupidest things instead of playing the game, and having fun. Even WHEN Igiss steps in and says "Thou shalt not do this on my server" people STILL whine bitch and argue.

So, if you want to point the finger at "lolwats" or "bad people" take a look at the freedom you yourself enjoy, to do whatever YOU want to do as well. If that is a problem then this is all Igiss fault.

Frankly?

I think I prefer Igiss fault. Because then I still have freedom.
That same freedom should be extended to other players.

Sovereign Wrote:Seek fun and you shall find it. Seek stuff to Q_Q about and you'll find that, too. I choose to have fun.
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Offline n00bl3t
09-04-2009, 03:24 PM,
#165
Member
Posts: 7,448
Threads: 108
Joined: Mar 2008

' Wrote:I'm sure you are aware that I could return half of it back to you, though I'll spare us that little infinite loop.
Actually I don't want to get you "under my banner". Instead I would prefer a majority decision without leading someone to the conclusion all independents would be strictly against factions and for sure be lolwutters.

Besides I just told you how your statements read for me, no need to start flaming.

No. You could not. Bring it. Let us see how far it goes. (No, it will not be infinite.)

Your "majority" does not include all players on the server, simply forumites.

If you do not want me under your banner, and I most certainly do not want you under mine, since you are in my eyes a "dependent independent", then stop trying to make me do this and that for your version of capital ship role-play.


' Wrote:Here comes the big bad real life comparison: If you are living in a country with a democratic government, then there will be elections every now and then. If you don't use your rights and actually really vote for someone you shouldn't complain afterwards if they won't do the job like you would like them to. You screwed up yourself, you and all the others who didn't care about. You might have done something to prevent it, but you didn't.

This part is obviously not about you, but about those who don't care.
I don't have that much time either. But if you are going for a battleship you will have to trade a lot anyways to get it. Why not write your request first and then trade for it while it's getting reviewed? And if it gets rejected you can always talk to the people and ask them how to improve your rp. But if you really think it's based on a personal grudge: carry it on to the admins, I'm sure they can help you.

I think we already agreed that there are problematic players in every type of ship. But the point is they are easier to get back in line if they are in something small than if they are in a big ship and you only in a small fighter trying to tell them what they are doing wrong. We just had a nice example in the other Thread when someone stated that he's a Fleet Admiral now because he has a LABC and wouldn't need to answer to anyone in a smaller vessel. I won't call the name, but I'm sure it's obvious who I'm talking about.

RL is not FL. Furthermore, playing the forums is not mandatory.

Why should I write a request when I can already RP?

No. It has been acknowledged that whenever a "problem capital" is seen a "lolbomber anti-capwhoring" fleet engages it, furthermore the big capitals are the usually the first to go down in combat. Let us ignore the fact that the bomber and the fighter usually outlast everything there and can usually get more kills as well.

If he wants to RP a Fleet Admiral what is the problem? (If he orders you around, feel free to RP that you come under a different command, but just understand that ordering him around may result in him telling you he is under a different command.)

[Image: hG0lGaj.png]
Anything I say is not intended as offensive, and to try and deliberately misinterpret it as such would be an attempt at trolling via misrepresentation.

It's not a conspiracy, it's localised bias. They're not intelligent enough to form a conspiracy.
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Offline atlantis2112
09-04-2009, 03:29 PM,
#166
Member
Posts: 1,350
Threads: 125
Joined: Apr 2009

Can I change my vote? I like Joe/Jinx's solution :mellow:
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Offline FooFighter
09-04-2009, 03:40 PM,
#167
Member
Posts: 726
Threads: 32
Joined: Sep 2007

' Wrote:Your "majority" does not include all players on the server, simply forumites.

Who also are the only ones that actually count. If you don't bother enough to sign up on the forums to be a part of this community, you are ignorable. People who don't vote in a democracy have no right to complain about bad people getting elected either.

Hyung Soong Wrote:Because the problem is not the ships.

The ships are still part of the problem though, due to a multitude of reasons:

A) If a Fighter or Bomber guy starts PvP whoring and lolwutting around, you can dispose of him rather easily, no matter what ship you are flying. Try destroying a Battleship following your VHF to your next base however.

B) To accurately RP a crewed ship, RP skills are a necessity.

C) Big ships should be something special. Which they are not, at the moment. You see battleships everywhere, and most of them are piloted by, excuse me, morons - yes, there are some really, really good indie cap players (Jimmy, I'm talking of you among others;)), but the majority consists of semi-retarded people who just "want big sh1pz cuz dey r teh uberpwnz0r". I've had both trouble and great RP with people in fighters, but the bigger the ships become, the less RP I tend to get from them. I wonder why.

D) Disco has a horrible "You can get everything you want as long as you just grind enough" mentality. Things like these already suck in other MMORPGs, but in an actual role playing game, such mentality has no place (at least, in my opinion). People should be working together, for the enjoyment of everybody, not to reach some gameplay goals like big ships.

looqas Wrote:For the simple fact that people who are inclined and curious about the ships should be able to buy them and test them out.

That's what OpenSP is for. There are few things that are more annoying than people "just testing" ships *on* the server, asking people to shoot them etc because they want the most powerful ship they can get >_> .
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Offline Eternal
09-04-2009, 03:57 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-04-2009, 04:00 PM by Eternal.)
#168
Member
Posts: 863
Threads: 35
Joined: Mar 2008

Although written in many words , put in long texts and covered with nothing but fictionalized points of view , which have never happened and will probably never do , the points stated by the players who , apparently still don't trust their fellow disco members , who have taken the responsibility of leading a faction and showing the new players how things are "supposed" to be done by said faction , are vague and it's almost impossible for them to become true.

You are nitpicking , to say the least. Searching for anything that might go wrong , any small detail that is never going to happen , is brought up and shown as a proof of factions being incompetent.

It is all so very easy to avoid the "skype" unfairness and "buddy" unfairness. The applications will simply be submitted on a special , probably new , place on the forums for everyone to see. Even after that is done , I admit that their might be a chance someone might be unhappy of the faction's ruling , again it's NOT a problem and never has been , admins and mods can interfere and "check" if things are alright , if you want.

Please , you are making faction leaders sound like incompetent idiots , who only want to make things harder for players and deny independents of their "rights". No wonder people are starting to treat some of us with less respect , for no reason what so ever. Many of those casual players , those who Nooblet and Song want to defend to badly , are looking down on factions , on faction leaders , not because they where hurt in any way , but because they simply want to do exactly the opposite of what the faction does.

Factions and faction leaders aren't just born out of nothing , many , many factions have passed the 1 year mark and so far , how many of them have been sanctioned for something done in a OoRP manner , or in an unfair manner? There have probably been no more then 2-3 incidents , as a whole , that's just proof that factions are indeed led by people and people make mistakes , but in reality , those mistakes are so few and so far in between one another , that they hardly count for anything. Although it seems that some people have a hobby of remembering each and everyone of them , bringing them up in topics like this one.

This topic is NOT about factions wanting to bash indies. This topic is about the Battleship and about the fact that developers want to turn them into something more then target practice , into something unique.

Again , change is a good thing , not changing , stalling in one place is what destroys communities.

Oh , one more thing , if people don't care enough to even vote , then they have already made their choice , if they don't vote , then they don't have an opinion.

Eternal

[Image: Sabre_Kopie.png]
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Offline Ceoran
09-04-2009, 08:31 PM,
#169
Member
Posts: 1,867
Threads: 34
Joined: Sep 2008

' Wrote:RL is not FL.

easy way to avoid arguments. Pretty ignorant though. You wanted to have it back, there you got it. Happy now? Stop flaming.

' Wrote:Why should I write a request when I can already RP?

You could also ask why you are still in those forums if you already learned to rp. If you can RP (and I don't doubt it), then where's your problem in writing your story down? Shouldn't you do that anyway in case you forgot some details and have to check them up again?

' Wrote:No. It has been acknowledged that whenever a "problem capital" is seen a "lolbomber anti-capwhoring" fleet engages it

Sounds like lolcaps are causing lolbombers.

' Wrote:Let us ignore the fact that the bomber and the fighter usually outlast everything there and can usually get more kills as well.

Sure, it doesn't affect the problem anyway how long anyone stays alive.

Now would please finally put your matches away? It's annoying.

[Image: signaturr.gif]
My Stories Outcast laws and structures Join Samura|-
' Wrote:Go play the game, within the given limitations. That is how role play games are played. Not by trying to work around those limitations or whining about them.
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Offline Thexare
09-04-2009, 09:18 PM,
#170
Ominously Humming
Posts: 3,821
Threads: 340
Joined: Apr 2008

I voted 4, as I favor the "innocent until proven guilty" approach. If they're idiots, then we can get them removed. If they're not, no problems.

Like Jinx, however, I don't think the petitions should be restricted to official factions. Not only for the issues mentioned by Jinx, but also because some of these capital ships will behave quite well around official factions, and the second no one "important" is watching...
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