One bomber > One cruiser
One gunboat > One cruiser
One battlecruiser > One cruiser
One battleship > One cruiser
Only exception to this is the Kusari destroyer and perhaps the Outcast destroyer, the former being able to challenge all of them and the latter being able to challenge a gunboat and bomber. I find the talarca to be normal in the cruiser class.
Cruisers should get more armour and possibly a complete weapon focus change, from direct combat (which it fails in no matter which way you look at it) to artillery, but thats my opinion.
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If you want to get better in a fighter, get good in a Titan. Slower ships are too slow and faster ships make you lazy. The reason to train in the Titan is it can just about keep up with faster ships if you know how to turn it while having a power plant that allows you to practice aiming with standard guns.
Which translates into you gaining the skill to turn faster in slow ships, meaning you turn faster in fast ships. It also means that your aiming becomes superior and you are able to use the smaller available time to fire in, say, an Eagle, to greater effect.
The overall result should mean that you rape people that havent trained hard or in the same way as you.
Missiles are the bane of this though, methinks. But im not sure that will be as much of a problem soon, with these rumours about the loss of detachable parts from vanilla ships.
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Clarkie, the SN right now is just good enough so a single bomber can solo a cruiser without an inferno. During the 4.84 betas, which were a while ago, it was noticed by a few players that the 100~k damage it used to do could not drop a cruiser shield on its own. This was why it was upped to the 130~k it is now.
It was made this way to stop people in cruisers and battleships chasing people in fighters and bombers. To a large extent, its achieved its objective but created an environment in which the larger you get, the more vulnerable you are. While this is a bad thing, I do not believe that halving the damage on the SN would be desirable.
' Wrote:If I can add something to this, as a destroyer pilot in my zoner char, and as a fairly new disco player;
It seems to me, from observation that it is entirely strange, unfair and bemusing that a bomber (singular) has a very very good chance of wasting very expensive, heavily armoured medium capital ships such as destroyers and cruisers. The simple reason this happens, and we all know it, is the SN.
in my humble opinion the SN is perhaps the most broken thing in the mod currently.. It does a little under triple the hull damage of a cruiser mounted mortar and has a tiny fraction of the energy consumption. I'm against removing it altogether, but I believe some of the following needs to happen to redress the balance here.
1. halve the damage dealt by the SN.
2. restrict its availability.
3. jack up the price.
4. reduce the firing rate??:unsure:
And also, I concur that there's no friggin ANY GB should be besting a destroyer (I'm assuming reasonable pilots in both here..).. Thats just... weird.
Since the game engine prohibits hull damage when the shield is up it'll be much more difficult to hit a ship's hull will the SN. Meaning they'd have to get the shield down to like 15% with the SN then use shield busters (easier for some factions than others) to finish the shield off then use the SN, that would make bombers have to do straightway attack patterns for longer and omre often if they wana keep the shields down.
' Wrote:If you want to get better in a fighter, get good in a Titan. Slower ships are too slow and faster ships make you lazy. The reason to train in the Titan is it can just about keep up with faster ships if you know how to turn it while having a power plant that allows you to practice aiming with standard guns.
Which translates into you gaining the skill to turn faster in slow ships, meaning you turn faster in fast ships. It also means that your aiming becomes superior and you are able to use the smaller available time to fire in, say, an Eagle, to greater effect.
' Wrote:1. halve the damage dealt by the SN.
2. restrict its availability.
3. jack up the price.
4. reduce the firing rate??:unsure:
And also, I concur that there's no friggin ANY GB should be besting a destroyer (I'm assuming reasonable pilots in both here..).. Thats just... weird.
I sign here... no friggin GB should be able to do it...
Raise the cruiser shield regen a little... and perhaps lowering the total shield value on the other side... just so that a single supernova spammer //yeah// could not get the job done on his own... and more firepower from either shield busters or a friendly ship would be needed
the gunboat issue is being adressed I believe, ... BH GS the root of all evil is being replaced...
So cruisers will shortley be restored to their glory...
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The low powerplant bombers can't hit hull with SN if they don't use guns on shield, and down the shieldregen with guns take time.
I personally find it extremely difficult to solo an properly flown Cruiser (Varyag, Dreygon...) on my own even in the RH bomber.
So I don't think that part needs more changing.
The other comparisons should be changed to look like this:
One gunboat < One cruiser
2 gunboats ~= one cruiser
(depending which cruiser, the "turret mode" ones : OUtcast, COrsair, RH, Red HEs shoud be > 2 GBs)
One battlecruiser =~ One cruiser
(depends a lot which one really, Liberty cruiser > BC, Kusari Dessie > BC, Dragon Cruiser > BC, others < BC)
one battlecruiser < 2 Cruisers (any)
One battleship > One cruiser
(should stay but the cruise can stay in range and don't die, all this while firing)
One battleship < Two cruisers ( if they keep range)
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I'm the "bombardment" fan as well...
so maybe better efficiency on Light Mortar/Razor => problem is that BCs can mount them as well...
Now normal cruiser can fire 2 Light Mortars at the same time (before loosing energy)... BC 5.
If you change it to 4 on Cruisers.. you get 10 on BCs!!!!
Also normal cruiser can not sustain firing 1 all the time. (have to wait for recharge)
BCs can sustain 1 and second if you wait a tiny bit ... now imagine them being able to fire 4 constantly!!!
Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.
' Wrote:------------
Clarkie, the SN right now is just good enough so a single bomber can solo a cruiser without an inferno. During the 4.84 betas, which were a while ago, it was noticed by a few players that the 100~k damage it used to do could not drop a cruiser shield on its own. This was why it was upped to the 130~k it is now.
It was made this way to stop people in cruisers and battleships chasing people in fighters and bombers. To a large extent, its achieved its objective but created an environment in which the larger you get, the more vulnerable you are. While this is a bad thing, I do not believe that halving the damage on the SN would be desirable.
Well then I guess I can understand it, but its still too damn cheap and too widely available no matter how you slice it.
I guess one of the issues with the bomber vs cruiser debate is the fact that while, yes, cruisers ideally should have an anti-fighter escort, this doesnt tend to happen. Given the geographical differences in our players, time commitments such as work, family etc, it can be very difficult to get anything like a battlegroup or fleet organised on anything like a casual basis. Something like that generally needs some notice for the other players you want. For those of us who just want a 'quick bash' we generally have to solo it, especially a Zoner like me who is primarily concerned with exploration. Now this isnt a big problem for me as I very rarely get set upon, but for other factions continually coming up against enemy GB's and bomber whores and losing must get very frustrating.
Now while turning cruisers into artillery vessels is an interesting idea, no ship would ever put to space without some serious close-in defence.
**Quick note, just noticed in the info-card for my Zoner dessie that it says it is smaller and more agile that other detroyers... Doesnt seem much different on either count.:D
' Wrote:One battleship =~ Two cruisers ( if they keep range)
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I'm the "bombardment" fan as well...
so maybe better efficiency on Light Mortar/Razor => problem is that BCs can mount them as well...
Now normal cruiser can fire 2 Light Mortars at the same time (before loosing energy)... BC 5.
If you change it to 4 on Cruisers.. you get 10 on BCs!!!!
Also normal cruiser can not sustain firing 1 all the time. (have to wait for recharge)
BCs can sustain 1 and second if you wait a tiny bit ... now imagine them being able to fire 4 constantly!!!
One battleship =~ Two cruisers ( if they keep range)
Unless effectievly shield running...
Mortars and Razors should be twice as efficient as they are now... Except something has to be changed about battlecruisers... perhaps mounting battleship only turrets on them...
They would have then the firepower of battleships but for a shorter period of time... whereas now they just spam cerebs and have more firepower than battleships...
Soo the Battlecruiser would amount to battle guns and cruiser armor... And power allready is inbetween....
What do you think about that?
' Wrote:Now while turning cruisers into artillery vessels is an interesting idea, no ship would ever put to space without some serious close-in defence.
That's why you never see a lone House cruiser anywhere... they are always backed by gunboats...
You do see a lone outcast destroyer... that has just some fighter escorts... the kind of ship capable of taking on fighters....
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Skype: jure.grbec
My primary char: Jose El Nino - Corsair Elder captain of the SS Greenhawk
Currently Inactive due to pursuit of life long dreams, will be back...*edited* As promised am back.
Great how I was being frowned upon when I complained about the class imbalance months ago..:nono:
Quote:From - Elder Gentle. Pirate King of the OPG.
"Your actions have demonstrated once more the common sense and cunning diplomacy that the Junkers have become accustomed to applying in these delicate situation. I have been much encouraged by what you have said."
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Cruisers will be heavily changed in the future indeed right now they suck... most can be killed 1 on 1 with a gunboat....
Donate to the Poor Pilot's Fundation via Sirius Bank /givecash GreenHawk 1000000 now, and support poor pilots sirius wide!
Skype: jure.grbec
My primary char: Jose El Nino - Corsair Elder captain of the SS Greenhawk
Currently Inactive due to pursuit of life long dreams, will be back...*edited* As promised am back.
Gunboats are also unbalanced, 2 gunboats = Battleship or even 2 Bombers = Battleship. Which SHOULD NOT. Be. It should take at least 3-4 gunboats for a battleship and the same for bombers. As of cruisers, cruisers are unbalanced toward the less powerfull side. Razors need to be enhanced, or something. Their armor needs to be upped. Thats it. For the bombers i suggest a turning nerf. because 2 bombers can win against a battleship and that IS [color=#CC0000]NOT RIGHT.
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