Ask Discovery: Order/Corsair Alliance

[NonSequitor]

The Corsair and Order alliance is basically the major reason I won't be creating an Order character. It simply has too many gaping holes in its logic. Gronath's analysis is dead on.

When my BH runs into an Order vessel, the rp-banter often includes a critique of faction ideology. The Order pilot has, on occasion, accused the BH faction of prioritizing profits over the security of the human race. Ok, he has a point. The BH doesn't hide this fact - they actively seek to acquire Nomad technology, while selling information and materials to the highest (lawful) bidder.

But. When I point out that the Order has essentially sold itself out to vicious, Nomad artifact-smuggling pirates (normally the Order opposes pirates, piracy and criminal activities), the Order guy often gets flustered and starts calling me a money-grubbing poopyhead. All in rp, of course.

Jinx's response on the matter of the artifact trade is well thought out, but a bit belabored. If I were in the Order, I would be constantly worried about that handful of potentially dangerous artifacts entering the black market. Yes, most of the artifacts are inert junk, but you only need 1 or 2 functional artifacts to unleash chaos upon an unsuspecting populace. Caution dictates, that all artifacts must be considered to be potentially hazardous and subject to intense scrutiny. And I seriously doubt that the Corsairs would care much for some "big brother" paying too much scrutiny to a trade that has literally lifted the Corsair people from abject poverty. How far would I trust the Corsairs and their abilities to keep an eye on the few dangerous artifacts?

If anything, the Order should be at war with the Corsairs. To me it would make more sense to leave the Nomad-fighting strictly to the Order and the BH could concentrate on, well, hunting bounties. If this kind of rp paradigm existed, I'd "jump ship" and join the Order in a heartbeat. Altruism wins out over the pursuit of profits any day. The Order would be gaining one more enemy, but I think the ingame situation would balance itself out. The matter of the Corsair and Order tech exchange would have to be sorted out, but that wouldn't be a inexorable problem. The Corsairs could keep their current line of capships, but would have to stick with Corsair weps.

[Zelot]

Megiddo, I think you point out something really good, but now I am going to twist it abit. If the Order were not allied with the Corsairs, it could probably be the perfect faction. The paradigm of the "Good Guy" Morally strong, powerful ideology, fighting for humanity, they dont bother humans, just nomads. It would be great, everyone wants to be the superhero.



But thats just the thing, the Order would have no flaws, it would be perfect. The faction would have no diplomatic or ethical drawbacks. No faction in the game is all "good" and to be honest they shouldnt be, it's not realistic. I kinda like the thought that the Order has to sell out a bit to the Corsairs. If the Order was not allied with the Corsairs, they would be completely surrounded by enemies. Nomads, Bounty Hunters, Liberty, and if the Order wasnt close with the Corsairs, the Corsairs would be hostile as well.



This is the reality of Sirius, nothing comes without drawbacks. So we dont say the Order wants to be allied with the Corsairs, but they feel without that Alliance, they would not be effective in their primary role of fighting nomads. So like every other faction, they have to compromise their own morals. It's very human in the end, and thats what it comes down to. In real life, many diplomatic alliances that occur, dont make a whole lot of sense, but they fill specific purposes, which people may agree or disagree with. Just because you dont think something makes sense, doesnt mean it isnt possible. Look around the world and you see people allied that make absolutely no sense, doesnt stop them from actually being allied.

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[Derkylos]

I am of the opinion that it should be moved from "allied" to "neutral". While Corsairs and Order share a lot of enemies, so do Order and numerous other factions.

The argument for "manpower reasons" holds no water to me, Orillion tells Trent that the Order recruits from all over Sirius, and it makes sense for it to be that way: they need the best humanity has to offer, and sod all the internal disputes.

The Order should be working together with many more factions than Corsairs-Hessians, for one, have a huge Nomad/Wilde problem (the Wilde have to travel through Hessian space to get anywhere)...yet Hessians are in a state of open warfare with Corsairs, and I have been warned off on my Order character by Hessians "for being a Corsair ally".

Another aspect worth considering is that there may be more than one "part" of the Order. Swisscorch's faction seems to me to be the static "keep the nomads out" aspect of the Order (sorry if I get your remit wrong, this is just what I have observed). However, there are other aspects of the Order. My character is a recon element, I tend to spend a lot of time outside of "Order" space (the deep Omicrons), observing the population of Sirius for potential infestation. I tend to have a hard time bringing myself to travel through certain areas due to the "Corsair-ness" which has been associated with the faction...should I be in Chugoku? Should I dock on Mactan? It seems to me that The Order would rather keep it's contacts with unlawfuls open (especially considering most of the houses already look down on them), rather than aligning themselves in any internal conflicts.

Anyways, just some observations and thoughts I had from playing as a long range Order recon pilot.

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[Agmen of Eladesor]

Zelot, I think it's your fault.

No, in this I mean I think you're right. :) You and Megiddo have hit it pretty well. I do think, though, that Derkylos misses one point (nothing personal).

The Order has to recruit from all over Sirius not because they need the best of the best of the best (Thank you, watching MIB too many times) but because they're such a black (underground) organization that no one really knows that much about them. Since they're not sanctioned and approved by the governments - in fact, they're primarily considered criminals by all the governments - how are you going to get all of the best? They have to recruit from all over Sirius because the pool of people that actually don't believe what the government says and is willing to do something about it is small - very small.

The reason, of course, that we as players know about this organization is because - well, we're players, and we have information that our characters don't have.

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Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.

[McNeo]

I believe that the Corsairs and the Order allied for militaristic reasons.

The Order gave technology and expertise to the Corsairs while the Corsairs provided manpower and secured their side of the Nomad front.

This is shown well, in my opinion, by the presence of Yaren base in Omicron Delta. Would there have been a reason to set up shop there without the Order? In my opinion, no.

The Order also cannot afford having another enemy. Surrounded by Liberty, the Nomads, the Bounty Hunters and the Corsairs would be rather bad. You say that the Order recruits from all walks of life... of course they do. But how many Blood Dragons would defect to the Order? Even Lord Hakkera didn't (from SP), he just tried his best to be both a Dragon and an Order agent. So too did the Outcast guy on Cali base (forgot the name). How many of those would then be willing to fight against groups which they've never heard of before, as well as the threat of the aliens?

The alliance with the Order also allows, as has been said previously, Order agents to sift through the many artifacts collected and extract dangerous pieces from the market, at the source rather than at the target market. It would be pretty silly for the Corsairs not to allow the Order to look through stores of artifacts, when they both have a sizable Nomad and Wilde enemy. Both the Hessians and the Corsairs have to deal with the problem of the Wilde, who inhabit a system one jump away from Omega 11 and Omega 5 (both of which have Hessian and Corsair patrols).

That said, Im not sure where I truely stand on the issue. My inner Corsair says "If the Order aren't our allies, then name a major faction who are allies of the Corsairs?" whereas my inner normal person says "Well, I dont really know enough about the Order since they weren't defined properly anywhere..."

[pieguy259]

So too did the Outcast guy on Cali base (forgot the name).

Kress.

I see it as a marriage of convenience. Like people have said, the Order is a hop, skip and a jump away from Crete, and do they really want such a large, powerful, close group of ruthless bloodthirsty pirates as an enemy? Hessians wouldn't work. Hessians aren't close enough, and the Corsairs are closer.

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PanGalactic Travel Company | PanGal Feedback | PanGal Recruitment

[NonSequitor]

You made some good points, Zelot. Flaws make for an interesting faction. I did forget to mention the fact that the Order isn't a holy order. I remember from the SP's cut out scenes, that many of the Order agents were in fact from non-lawful organizations. That makes sense, as Agmen pointed out. The Order needs an expansive, inclusive, Sirius-wide intelligence network.

That said, I think Corsair influence is too dominant in the Order. The alliance just feels "artificial": the Corsairs don't have as many allies as the Outcasts, so let's give them the Order. I made a half-hearted attempt to create an Order pilot a few months back. But I gave up, because he just seemed to be a Corsair with an Order accent. If I wanted a Corsair character, I'd make one.

Tolerating an individual agent's illegal activities within his host faction is one thing, but "a marriage of convenience" between the Order and a major criminal house is a stretch. Especially when that criminal house has expansionist tendencies.

Another thing. The Outcast have a special relationship with the Nomads. I would think that the Order would give high priority to recruiting agents from amongst the Outcasts. Even without the Corsair-Order alliance, recruiting a mid- to high-level Outcast is a daunting challenge. With the Corsairs and Order so tightly bound to one another, the chance of winning the hearts and minds of enlightened Outcasts is about non-existent.

Then there's the problem with number of the Order's enemies. One solution would be to place the BH on neutral ground with the Order. Or simply take the BH out of the Nomad-hunting business.

[Tomtomrawr]

All I know is that The Order made the Alliance with the Corsairs because they needed help building larger ships, and the Corsair wanted it because The Order could train their pilots.

Thats all I know i'm afraid.

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[17:45:39] Wolfs Ghost (Murphy): Tom, you have problems. Go kill yourself.
[19:25:12] Johnny (Jam): Tomtom, I will beat you with a spoon.
[14:22:56] Prarabdh Thakur: KILL HIM WITH A SHEEP.
[17:40:48] Eagle (Junes): Tom should be slapped with a spoon.
[11:32:18] Warspite: Thank you for being so awesome Tom. <3
[18:17:36] Metano: I love you tomtom
[20:06:24] Warspite: I will seriously give you epic head.

Edit: also, Tomtomrawr, fappin' like a boss.

[hribek]

Megiddo, I think you point out something really good, but now I am going to twist it abit. If the Order were not allied with the Corsairs, it could probably be the perfect faction. The paradigm of the "Good Guy" Morally strong, powerful ideology, fighting for humanity, they dont bother humans, just nomads. It would be great, everyone wants to be the superhero.

Guess what - it's not a coincidence. Hidden-superhero concept? Hey, it was designed as a simple video game.


But now that the Order took advantage of the Corsair alliance, has its own shipyards and lot of manpower, I would expect the alliance to cease because it doesn't offer The Order anything anymore and only limits The Order in pursuing their goals.

Funny thing is, the Corsair - Order alliance was out of neccessity, that's very clear. But on the other hand you're saying The Order would have no enemies in its vanilla state of being... Now where's the logic in that?

One more thing to point out: The Nomads and The Wild are much stronger than any faction. "Just" the Nomads and The Wild? They "count" as two factions each, if not more.

[Heartless]

I have thought about this before and it's the artifacts that bug me. They smuggle them... yet I get the feeling we should be detaining ships with them and taking the artifacts for our own use. But attacking allied ships for that?

The reason for the alliance is mutual. Corsairs can help us survive in the Omicrons because we are small, and in turn they gain some technology (I mean, they sell the Osiris).

Other than that, fighting outcasts and the such has always been out of the question for me. I've never given an order to attack outcasts or anything of the sort, because the last thing I need is an outcast fleet in Minor. Now if some Order players fly to Gamma for whatever reason, well, show we're friendly? If they're attack by bounty hunters then I understand getting involved, personally, I dislike bounty hunters more than nomads. But if it's an outcast fleet or something, then our involvement should be minimal.

As for the artifact thing, I think I'll bring something up in the diplomatic matters thread, cause that really does have to be discussed.

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SwissScorch --> Heartless