Piracy: ok or not?

[carlabrams]

Not as far as I know. "Terrorist ID" and "Xeno Terrorist ID" are not related as far as I know. The xeno IDs contain the word terrorist, but are basically just run of the mill pirates. I could be wrong but...

The Xeno ID unfortunately contains the word terrorist. This is NOT, repeat NOT, the same as the terrorist ID. (As per as assortment of sanction reports...)

So a Xeno does NOT have the same freedom to wantonly rampage, pillage, and destroy that someone with the Terrorist ID does. They still have to RP just like regular pirates.

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Sentient Machine Alliance

[El Nino]

Oh my, what is up with this lameness.. A "pirate" makes a demand, he has guns you have cargo to lose, it's a two milion credit question. You obay his commands, if he only wants you to turn around you are getting off cheap so do it!

What's up with all the rulelawyering around pirates... If a traders falls in to pirate hands he'd better meet the demands... If the pirate wants to kidnap your first mate, he can, if he wants to burn your engines he can, if he has his way with your mechanic, he can... If the pirate is a female you might aswell give her a 50% tip or she'll cut something off you.

So if pirate only says turn around and leave... you turn around and you hit cruise, you speedmod if you have to, just get out of his way and never come back... for that is what trader would do in roleplay...

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Donate to the Poor Pilot's Fundation via Sirius Bank /givecash GreenHawk 1000000 now, and support poor pilots sirius wide!
Skype: jure.grbec
My primary char: Jose El Nino - Corsair Elder captain of the SS Greenhawk

Currently Inactive due to pursuit of life long dreams, will be back...*edited* As promised am back.

[maclypse]

Oh my, what is up with this lameness.. [...]

Constructive replies only please, in response to the original questions asked. The "traders are lame" issue has been "discussed" to death, and it's not the topic of this thread.

mac

[Dusty Lens]

Mac, just so I can argue the point, may I ask if this is again referring to our encounter in Shikoku? The one that took place just prior to your ban?

If so I might be able to place a little more context for these folks.

I'm going to assume these are some week old sour grapes at play here. So essentially what took place is, having chased the fellow from Kepler to New Tokyo I turned about once it was clear he had escaped and was on my way back down to Kepler*.

I stumbled into him again on my way back, he was carrying credit cards and human passengers, tourists, which I think move from NT to Denver or NY.

My line is that I prefer, which falls in with the quasi eccentric nature of my character, to not take a human life if it can be helped. So I told him to jettison his credit cards as a nod to the Xeno movement and turn on his six, if he tried to press on into Liberty his life and those of his charges would fall as martyrs.

This was not a blanket "KOS" ultimatum as is being suggested here. Rather it was a continuation of the one Xeno RP demand**.

He decided to throw caution to the wind and pressed on towards Liberty, running into me again on the road to Galileo.

As promised, I ended his life.

This all happened within the same system within 5 minutes period of time. Spawning now two threads complaining about it I might add.

Edit: Furthermore, around the one rather hamfisted line Jure made several excellent points. If you're going to pull an Akumabito, cherry picking replies to suit your desired conversational outcome, I'm afraid it's not going to be long before you get a troll label slapped onto your face.

*Perfectly legit, chases can go on for a spell. Not the same as hovering at all.

** As demonstrated by my encountering him a second time, as point of fact, wherin I did not kill him on sight, but rather demanded once again that he drop his cargo.

*** Well he's trolling the rules section looking for numbers to throw at me. But time presses and I must be off for work, I'll see if I can find time to check up on this thread later so I can put it to bed.

[maclypse]

I do not want this to turn into a discussion about specific events that the admins have resolved over a week ago. I do not want this to turn into personal attacks, not against me, nor anyone else. I do not want a discussion of pirate / trader mentalities and attitudes. I'm simply asking two questions, because I do not know the answers.

Now, can we get back on topic, please?

[Dusty Lens]

I'm simply seeking to frame the topic, as I am rather sure that you're basing your question off of a specific event. Providing a blanket "no" for 1, for example, could avoid contextual scenarios such as the one which I provided.

That being said.

In regards to question 1 I would say yes.

So long as the demand falls within the cannon RP foundation of the associated NPC faction it is legit. Xenos could very well demand you stay out of Liberty and blow you up if you return that with a "LOLNO" and jump through the adjacent jumpgate.

It's a demand, same as 2milrdye or dropurcargolol.

Now that's the defined area, now on to the grey.

It would be an acceptable demand from a Xeno. A Rogue on the flipside would be hard pressed to find occasion to demand someone stay out of Liberty. They would rather fleece you and kill the Xeno to make sure he doesn't muck up the flow of traffic.

Now say you're in Edinburgh and you chance upon a Gaian who demands you flip about and get the hell out of system as opposed to re-fueling/whatever that goshdarn OSC lux liner. The Gaian didn't demand you give him muneez, he didn't demand you drop your cargo, but he did make a within RP -demand- that fits his faction.

Follow it or explode.

2) For 2, I don't have a good answer for that one. Opening with an "attack" such as a CD should always be valid prior to invoking some manner of communication, but following that... Well. Damned if I know.

But thems the rules, unless someone decides to change 'em. Pew pew pew.

[centauri5pirate]

Two questions:

1) Can a Xeno demand that a trader stays out of liberty, and kill any trader that refuses? As far as I can see it's not allowed according to the ID, but... still happened. Once been forced to drop cargo and stay out of liberty - I dropped the cargo as demanded and then was shot down for getting too close to liberty space. Is this ok?

A Xeno can demand you stay out of Liberty once you have been stopped trying to bring foreign goods in. If you try again, you will become a high target priority. Our main base for RP is the halt of all foreign trade. If somebody tried it once, it's a sure bet they will probably try it again, hence the demand to stay away. Think of it the same way the LN stops traders coming into to Liberty via Rheinland. You must turn around if you want to walk with your life. Or drop all cargo and continue on. And the is the House Military you're dealing with. If a trader complies with my demands to drop his cargo and suffer the anguish of seeing me destroy it in front of him, I will let him continue on his way, and if he stops willingly right away and complies, he will usually leave without a scratch on his ship. If he runs however, his repair bills will outweigh his cargo loss, that I can assure you. Some Xenos are a bit more bloodthirsty than me, but such is life. It's perfectly in RP for him to tell you to stay out of our House, given that you were trying to bring imported goods in, be it food, guns, tourists, or whatever. This is what we do.

2) Rule 6.21 says you can't engage without RP, an engagement notice. Rule 6.19 says a pirate can deal damage before making any demands. As far as I can see, one does not exclude the other: the pirate can attack before demanding money or cargo, but not until after they initiated some form of RP, like asking them to stop, or sending engagement notice. It seems a lot of pirates on the server has interpreted 6.19 as an override to 6.21 with the meaning: "I can shoot a trader without engagement notice." What's the verdict here? Can they attack without notice, like they do?

If you read section 5 of the rules, at the bottom you will see this: *For purposes of these Rules, an attack is draining shields to 50% or lower, or hull damage, or when a Cruise Disruptor is fired. Intentional ramming of any large ship is also considered an attack.
Pirates have a right to deal damage before making demands, the main reason being 99% of the time we have to fire a CD first to prevent the target from escaping. If we had to type something first, most of the time our prey would get by.
If a pirate destroys you before making a demand, by all means, write up a report, because players like that do give pirate reputations a black eye here. But it is perfectly legal, however cruel to bust someone down to 5% hull before saying anything. But then again, some pirates are heartless, bloodthirsty, and want you to suffer more than others. But it is still legal.

Hope that clarifys things a bit.

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You ask me why Im weary, why I cant speak to you.
You blame me for my silence, say Its time I changed and grew.
But the war's still going on dear, and theres no end that I know...
And I cant say if were ever...
I cant say if were ever gonna be free.

[maclypse]

Thanks for the opinions on the questions. There's just a few things that kind of bother me about it all:

On question 1:

Most IDs are very specific. As an example, a liberty police ID clearly states they can stop smugglers and fine them, and destroy them if they don't comply. A libery navy ID allows you to stop smugglers, but not fine them, and they can't do anything within a few specific systems (out of their jurisdiction I guess). What I'm getting at, is that the IDs are very specific and restrictive, even for a faction in their own space. Does it make sense that a navy cruiser can't do anything about a cardamine smuggler in New York? Maybe not, but that's what the ID says.

A Kusari Navy ID for example reads "Can destroy traders in Kusari who belong to corporations headquartered in Houses that Kusari is at war with if the trader refuses to drop all cargo and leave Kusari." There's nothing like this present on the Xeno ID, that indicates the Xeno can demand that traders leave and stay out. Then again - there's no comment like this on a Liberty Police ID either, so I can certainly see you have a point too.

Cops can go after a "known smuggler" even if they are not smuggling at that very moment - I know that.
When it comes to the Xenos though, they are operating in hostile space, not their own. While liberty is definitely their zone of influence, I wouldn't call Colorado a Xeno-system - I'd call it a Liberty system. On top of that, the Xeno IDs are basically the same as any other pirate ID, but even more restrictive. I guess the thing that bothers me is that in liberty space, a legitimate trader is forced into the role of a smuggler by the Xenos. Being highjacked by pirates is one thing, but being hunted down like a known smuggler is another.

From what you are all saying, it feels like what you are doing is basically acting like the police - but targetting lawfuls, not smugglers: you demand cargo, and destroy them if they don't go away. I certainly understand the RP reasons for doing this, and I certainly see the appeal of being "more than a pirate", having a political agenda. I'm just wondering if it's ok that traders become smugglers everytime a Xeno is around. Sort of... "If we wanted to play smugglers, we'd get a smuggler ID and buy cardamine", you know?

I see your RP point - I hope you see my OORP point. I just think it's a complicated situation, which is why I'm asking, and hopig to get an answer from an admin or something.

Wow, that was long... sorry.

On question 2:

You seem to equate "demand" with "initiate RP", turning "can hurt a trader before making demands" into "can hurt a trader before initiating RP". I know many pirates do this - but most of them do not. The majority of the pirates I met have all said something before firing (they don't always make a demand) and my pirates always initiate some kind of RP before attacking. "Oh look, a fat trader." initiates RP, but its not a demand. See what I mean?

I think my problem is that it doesn't say "pirates can attack without initiating RP". Maybe this is what rule 6.19 was intended to mean - but it's not what it says. Thus, me asking... Has an admin ever commented on this, on whether it's ok or not?


mac

[Dusty Lens]

but targetting lawfuls, not smugglers: you demand cargo, and destroy them if they don't go away. I certainly understand the RP reasons for doing this, and I certainly see the appeal of being "more than a pirate", having a political agenda. I'm just wondering if it's ok that traders become smugglers everytime a Xeno is around. Sort of... "If we wanted to play smugglers, we'd get a smuggler ID and buy cardamine", you know?

Well, I think that you're mistaken on a few points. The Xenos nail everybody. Kishiro to Slaver to Ageira to Cardamine smuggler.

We do not touch Zoners or IMG, based on our need for their ports of call.

Take a look at some of my message dumps, I'm honestly completely baffled where you're getting your information from in regards to the Xenos. The notion that we do not touch smugglers is really confusing me. My character as a specific loaths slavers and I go through a lot of trouble to focus very specifically on interdicting the slave trade, in addition to going well out of my way to see those unfortunate souls find their way back to a safe harbor.

Again, check out our message dump if you'd like to see some tangible evidence of this.

As to the rest of your post, I don't really know what to say. From the Xeno perspective your presence is unwelcome if you're a foreign concern. Your business is a spit in the face if you're a domestic concern. Both parties are made an example of to skyline our cause. If you are within our ZOI you will be hunted. That's the tall and short of it.

The tradeoff is that everyone hates us and we're stuck in small ships.

So there you go. If you don't have a Xeno, Universal, IMG, Zoner, Order or Phantom ID you are a potential target. Hell, most of those IDs are still subject to attack depending on the cargo they're hauling. Zoner slaver? Time to be put to the blade.

[maclypse]

Calm down... there's no need to always assume the worst. I wasn't saying you don't target smugglers; maybe I could have expressed myself more clearly. The only thing I was trying to say was: a trader is treated by xenos, like a smuggler is treated by the police.

I think it's a bit of a shame that you can't see the point I was trying to make, but in the end it hardly matters.

mac