Zoner RP Solutions

[globalplayer-svk]

Correct, but the Corsairs, according to canon, got their fleet's ass handed to them by Rheinland.

Helping the Zoners would only bring down German wrath upon them, as well as Hessians etc.

Of course, you forgot that the Corsairs are losing to the Hessians and might need their fleet elsewhere? The Corsairs are fighting the Nomads, the Outcasts, the GMG, Bretonia and the Hessians. That's FIVE fronts. How do you manage that, eh? That's before mentioning the BHG Core fleet too...

i was waiting when you type this blunt..
at first, dont forget that from debakel in rheinland corsairs rebuilded their fleet, it was 2 years ago, long enough or no ????

and helping zoners, i dont think that germans, or hessians will be angry on zoners only because corsairs are helping them to defend. i see it more as hessians will try to help them too to have something in reward....

and last and the most important thing is, you typed that i forgot that corsairs are loosing to the hessians and so, but it is not bretonia loosing much much more to kusari? bretonia loosed system, planet, few stations from its territoty and you ahve no problem with starting even bigger war on the other side of bretonia,
so when is bretonia capable of making that, why you think taht corsairs can not? dont forget, that corsairs are the biggest pirate faction in sirius...
and when i am counting then: corsairs,gaians,kusari,mollies, and nomads are in bretonia too, that is how much ? 5 so any difference?

so double meter?
bretonia can without problem and corsairs can not???

ooc : i am starting to think, that behind this whole situation is something personal that has nothing to do with rp... but just my opinion...

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[bluntpencil2001]

i was waiting when you type this blunt..
at first, dont forget that from debakel in rheinland corsairs rebuilded their fleet, it was 2 years ago, long enough or no ????

and helping zoners, i dont think that germans, or hessians will be angry on zoners only because corsairs are helping them to defend. i see it more as hessians will try to help them too to have something in reward....

and last and the most important thing is, you typed that i forgot that corsairs are loosing to the hessians and so, but it is not bretonia loosing much much more to kusari? bretonia loosed system, planet, few stations from its territoty and you ahve no problem with starting even bigger war on the other side of bretonia,
so when is bretonia capable of making that, why you think taht corsairs can not? dont forget, that corsairs are the biggest pirate faction in sirius...
and when i am counting then: corsairs,gaians,kusari,mollies, and nomads are in bretonia too, that is how much ? 5 so any difference?

so double meter?
bretonia can without problem and corsairs can not???

ooc : i am starting to think, that behind this whole situation is something personal that has nothing to do with rp... but just my opinion...

No difference, no. But you said multiple fronts would get Bretonia pwnt. It wouldn't, since it doesn't happen to Corsairs. And, no, two years isn't long enough. It took Germany twenty years to rearm after WW1, and that wasn't on a galactic scale.

And OOC, yes I have a problem with Zoners being utterly unrealistic or believable in the slightest, utterly alien from their vanilla RP.

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[jammi]

I still want comments regarding synth dome powergaming! Not letting it die!

Lulz, I powergamed my way into their bio-domes.

i was waiting when you type this blunt..
bretonia loosed system, planet, few stations from its territoty and you ahve no problem with starting even bigger war on the other side of bretonia

What planet and system would that be? BAF fighters are still free to land on Harris and warm their toes around the Bretonian built fireplaces if they so please. Last I checked Planet Leeds was sewn up pretty tight as well.

Also, capitalisation is your friend.

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News article library, feedback and content requests.

[darthbeck]

ooc : i am starting to think, that behind this whole situation is something personal that has nothing to do with rp... but just my opinion...

i think it has something ,ore with blunty wanting to troll. but uhh...

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<span style="font-family:Century Gothic">Violence is Golden</span>

[DAnvilFan]

No wonder two of your characters want to achieve almost the same RP result.

Characters should be motivated by their personality and environment, not by your hatred towards how Zoner RP has evolved.

[Spear]

You know, rather than using the Swiss/Al-Qaeda example, perhaps a more relevant example of neutrality is the events of the Battle of the River Plate.

The German pocket battleship Admiral Graf Spee was forced after taking heavy damage into the neutral port of Montevideo in Uruguay. The Uruguayan Government told the Germans that they could stay no longer than 72 hours or face Internment. Although the Graf Spee was able to make repairs in that time it had depleted most of its ammunition and were deceived into thinking the British had a far larger force waiting for them. Rather than be destroyed by the British or have his ship impounded the Graf Spee Commanding Officer chose instead to scuttle his ship just outside the port.

OK an interesting RP solution to this whole fiasco is the Zoner's ban all war-ships from their bases, lawful & unlawful. A non-Zoner War-ship can only be permitted to dock for repairs under Zoner permission and their stay is time limited by the Zoner's. Free trade remains unmolested and the Zoner's continue to allow all trades ship regardless of faction entry. The Zoner's could in RP demand that not only their NFZ be enforced but that foreign war-ships not enter the NFZ unless given permission by the Zoner's to do so.

This would maintain Zoner neutrality and avoid any future attempts to drag the Zoner's into taking a side when they do not wish too. Let's face it, any House in Sirus at the moment could chose to RP being peeved at the Zoners for allowing safe harbour to enemies and any unlawful faction could also do the same. Why not nip this in the bud with a simple RP amendment to your NFZ policy that basically says "Zoner bases are for Zoner warships only, damaged ships may dock only under permission from the Zoner's and their stay shall be time limited" This has a basis in RL history and RL international historic law regarding belligerent war-ships in neutral ports.

Since this thread is about solutions, what are your thought's on this?

That would certainly be one workable solution - effectively genuine political neutrality. The problem with neutrality which many people seem to have failed to realise is that, as you rightly say, it is not simply a matter of doing nothing when conflicts arise. In practice a genuinely neutral position when there are wars raging around you is an extremely difficult position to maintain and requires constant work to balance various interests. Just saying, "alright, anyone can land on GC as long as they don't shoot each other, we don't care" is not an active way of maintaining neutrality and would deteriorate pretty quickly.

Also, if anything the zoner position is made more difficult by the fact that they are not simply trying to be neutral between lawful nations in conflict, they are trying to be neutral between lawful nations and groups who act to all extents as petty criminals and terrorists. Trying to conduct official diplomacy with House Governments as their equals whilst harbouring criminals openly is a hard gulf to bridge.

My suggestion would be to adopt a more isolationist stance; this, after all, is supposedly what the Zoners were founded on - they wanted to escape from the Houses more than be neutral to them. So, yes, banning warships from their bases would be one option. More interestingly, I might suggest allowing various Zoner holdings more autonomy (as this is in keeping with the Zoner principle of decentralisation) - have different Freeports adopt different positions. Perhaps appoint governors to each Freeport and Gran Canaria who can arbitrate local conflicts without the imposition of central rules, and do so in the interests of the regional powers. So, Freeport 1 might be more friendly towards the Bretonians than the corsairs, whilst Freeports closer to the corsair home systems might adopt more openly pro-corsair policies. Whilst none would neccessarily go so far as banning anyone from using the Freeports altogether, they could try to prevent anyone using the Freeports, or Gran Canaria, to base attacks from against whichever was the nearest major power.

Switzerland is a poor example, not least because the Swiss are in practice not all that neutral, especially between other nations and criminals and terrorists. The real world offers no examples of perfect neutrality in this manner, becuase perfect neutrality does not exist. It is an impossibility and the Zoners would do well to learn this. Instead, they should try to prevent any major power becoming too influential over them and also prevent any major power becoming too hostile to them, by taking pragmatic steps in individual circumstances. Do whatever neccssary to prevent any war from breaking out or any group from forming alliances with you. If that requires that you occasionally favour one group a bit more than another, or arrest and sacrifice a few individuals from a minor group in a gesture of goodwill to a more powerful neighbour then so be it. And remember, always, that political neutrality by your government does NOT in any way correspond to diplomatic immunity for your individual citizens. They can be pirated and they can be arrested in the same way as anyone else. Neutrality =/= special treatment for traders. Swiss citizens don't have get out of jail free cards for use in other countries.

Leaving the insanity that is Omega-49 aside, this is a prime example of how the "integration" and "expansion of RP" creates unforeseeable complications in faction diplomacy. Factions that, in vanilla, have never had the slightest reason to encounter each other are now mingling freely and having tea together.

In the original game, Zoners would only interact with a relatively small number of factions (Outcasts, Corsairs, Hunters, houses, corporations, Hessians, Xenos, Rogues, Hackers and Unioners. Due to Discovery's tendency to "shrink" the Freelancer universe, however, they end up in contact with several other entities, whose outlook remains undefined. Hence, one cannot simply refer to "vanilla relationships", but must make up something entirely new.

Comparisons to real-world politics also fall down when one considers the vastness of space, the impracticality of any organisation patrolling all of it's "claimed" territory at all times (then again, claiming open space is as laughable as claiming vast swathes of desert. You cannot do anything with it. And there is nothing there. One only needs to look at the African campaign in the 1940s to see how much of a liability such territory is), and the sheer distances over which information has to travel (Texas contains communications relays, running alongside trade lanes, implying that even communication funneled through the lanes is inefficient).

It is quite conceivable that a ship could dock on a base completely unnoticed by any faction save for the base's owner. This is especially true with regards to a Freeport, considering their locations in areas that are not claimed by any faction, due either to their distance from that faction's bases of operations, or the lack of anything worth patrolling in the immediate vicinity.

Perhaps the Zoner relations need a cleanup, either via infocard editing, or by inserting more rumors into bases of both them and factions that are not covered by the original game. Saying "they're neutral" is simply too vague to roll with. There needs to be a reason for it, and it needs to be a reason that everyone can adapt into their "story", not just a "we're neutral 'coz we're Zoners", or a "they're hostile 'coz we dun' like 'em".
Great theory, shame that, in practice, people, with no idea what "RP" is, and a big ship will dock and log, anyway.

Much as I hate to quote myself in this thread, it's still about solution's rather than two sides refusing to budge one inch either way and repeating the same things. I liked LeMaitre autonomy idea with each Zoner facility having a Governor that tries to walk a tightrope of local diplomacy.

How about more compromise, less sarcasm, post's that have thought behind them and more excellence to each other :D

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=LSF=

[globalplayer-svk]

No difference, no. But you said multiple fronts would get Bretonia pwnt. It wouldn't, since it doesn't happen to Corsairs. And, no, two years isn't long enough. It took Germany twenty years to rearm after WW1, and that wasn't on a galactic scale.

And OOC, yes I have a problem with Zoners being utterly unrealistic or believable in the slightest, utterly alien from their vanilla RP.

no difference, so on one side you are saying that corsairs after 2 years after loosed battle have not enough ships to try invade bretonia, but on the other side, bretonia has enough ships after debakle from kusari maybe 2 months ago? why i think that bretonia will use every single free ship to gain back what they loosed in war with kusari and not trying to start war on other side?....
is that logical blunt or no?

and zoners away from their vanilla RP, ehm, what was vanilla RP of QCP? wait, they dont exist in vanilla, so please delete them all ... that is how you are thinking?

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[DAnvilFan]

I liked LeMaitre autonomy idea with each Zoner facility having a Governor that tries to walk a tightrope of local diplomacy.

Actually....that doesn't sound too bad. Executing the idea may very difficult though.

[Elsdragon]

Stop haxing my biodomes:(

ANd please, Chars are not for driving an OOC issuse

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No longer a slave to the man!

[bluntpencil2001]

Stop haxing my biodomes:(

ANd please, Chars are not for driving an OOC issuse

It's also an in RP issue.

The evidence is on Freeport 2, which gave in to political pressure in a similar situation.

The problem with Governors implies that Zoners are governed and have a government.

They fled such things for a reason.

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