' Wrote:a) How would those bombers fight gunboats then? They'd get raped by them in small fights (3vs3 and under) much easier. 40% more armor and a bit more energy regen doesn't help much when the bomber gets hit by every shot.
I find it a lot easier to fight gunsboats from 300m range by firing supernovas at it. Currently, while the bomber guns do a lot of damage, you have to get close and stay close in order to drop the GB's shield ready for a nova or supernova, which was not the case if you were using debs.
If you are close, even if you are behind the gunboat, it's only a matter of the GB pilot hitting turret mode for a second and causing you massive damage, or using the fact you're close to drop a few razors on you. And there's no cure for three of them in most bombers.
I think having an array of these 1-shot type guns (like the supernova) is a better bet against gunboats than having these extremely slow projectile 4.00 refire guns.
Those one-shot type guns allow you to stay at range most of the time, meaning you only have to get close for a short time to fire one shot then move away again.
Bomber vs fighter, unless the fighter gets unlucky (or stupid), a far inferior fighter pilot can defeat a bomber one on one. But that was the case in the last update as well.
If we are to keep the guns on a bomber, just drop the damage and up the projectile speed.
' Wrote:I find it a lot easier to fight gunsboats from 300m range by firing supernovas at it. Currently, while the bomber guns do a lot of damage, you have to get close and stay close in order to drop the GB's shield ready for a nova or supernova, which was not the case if you were using debs.
What's keeping you from using just SN now?
Honestly on all my bombers bare OC Falcata and Corsair Praetorian, I ever since 4.83 only use SN, even against shield. Only time where it actually makes sense to use guns is in 1vs1, but in that fight GB has a build-in advantage and should win, just like fighter vs bomber.. or cruiser vs gb. Else even in group fights it's much safer to stay at range as you say and just move in to fire sns. With at least 2 bombers around it's not so big problem for 1 bomber to just drop shield and the other one hit hull.
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Fighter vs bomber 1vs1 was never that big problem, expect say 4 deb/2 mini bombers which were adressed now.
The problem was that bombers could drop shield/hit hull of fighters that were not targeting them outside 1vs1 about as easy as fighters. Sometimes even easier since they could fire their guns all the time.
So 4 bombers had actually a reasonable chance to defeat 4 fighters even though any of them would loose 1vs1. But in 4vs4 with multiple bombers on a fighter that was shieldless all the time, it didn't need that much skill for one of the 60 Sns fired to kill the fighter.
(Yes I'm repeating myself here word by word on purpose)
This is the reason while bomber guns are slow.
Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.
' Wrote:What's keeping you from using just SN now?
Honestly on all my bombers bare OC Falcata and Corsair Praetorian, I ever since 4.83 only use SN, even against shield. Only time where it actually makes sense to use guns is in 1vs1, but in that fight GB has a build-in advantage and should win, just like fighter vs bomber.. or cruiser vs gb. Else even in group fights it's much safer to stay at range as you say and just move in to fire sns. With at least 2 bombers around it's not so big problem for 1 bomber to just drop shield and the other one hit hull.
That is true. The advantage gunboats had against bombers in the last update was enough. It was very hard work to solo a gunboat in a heavy bomber (the kaichou or praetorian for example, both of which I fly) and near impossible in a lighter bomber without an inferno, (upholder or broadsword, both of which are supernova magnets by the way, due to the shape and length, but that's another matter).
I find the advantage gunboats currently have to be too much. This isn't some in built anti-gunboat bias talking, I love flying my gunboats, of which I own two (OC GB and Lib GB). Currently a roc, upholder or broadsword will not be able to solo a rookie gunboat pilot due to not being able to hit from 300m range with shieldbusters.
The rather odd thing, was with the current bomber guns I was nearly (I say nearly because a VHF dropped by and gave me some more bots and batts late in the fight) able to solo an OC dessie in my upholder. I emptied a powerplant full of those shieldbusters and nearly saw the light of heaven. I laughed so hard as the dessie yelled "WTF?!" in system chat, then just waited for my plant to regen and started dropping supernovas.
That seems like something of an issue to me. I'm no great bomber pilot by any means. I'm far more suited to VHF flying.
If I am alone and have a greater fear of gunboats than cruisers, I think we need to redress the issue a touch. A bomber should not be able to solo a cruiser at all, whereas it should be able to solo a gunboat if well flown.
' Wrote:Wouldn't that take us closer to the status quo of the past version. Or downright there?
It would still prevent the use of missiles.
Also 450m/s speed with 4.00 refire would make fighters hard to hit, or 500m/s speed with 2.00 or event 1.00 refire would make fighters harder to hit while making gunboats an easier target.
Reason why I brought out gunboats in the first place was that I don't get how would a fafnir-like bomber without any guns have better chance vs gbs than the current ones.
IMO it would have much harder time the current "weak vs GB" bombers have. When we tested Fafnir with 2 debs flown by Ench (with more energy regen than it has now) vs me in Bretonian GB some long time ago the GB won each time.
Yes they might be a bit too good vs them, though that's again question of who you fly against. I was testing Falcata vs OC dessie who knew how to fly and I couldn't down his shield using SN and guns, sure if he wouldn't chainfire back (primaries) and strafe/thrust from SN it would have been different. But it's not that bombers simply solo cruisers now.
Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.
A bomber isn't meant to solo a gunboat. And I don't agree with that you can't hit from 300m with shieldbusters. These guns may be slow but they have superior range than any fighter weapon and a gunboat can not move faster than the projectile speed of a bomber gun. And even before the new guns, bombers were already forced to converge the gunboats in order to hit them with their supernova cannons. A gunboat will be fairly countered with the proper flying techniques unless you are trying to solo it.
The OC dessie issue is one instance as I have said before. We can't come to a grand conclusion with that.
On the uncharted lagoons of anguish, I sail with a canoe made of my sins.
Yes they might be a bit too good vs them, though that's again question of who you fly against. I was testing Falcata vs OC dessie who knew how to fly and I couldn't down his shield using SN and guns, sure if he wouldn't chainfire back (primaries) and strafe/thrust from SN it would have been different. But it's not that bombers simply solo cruisers now.
The guy was a rookie, although I can't speak too much about that, as I'm a hopeless cruiser pilot msyelf. I just don't understand howto get the best out of those things...
That aside, Kress, you are right. With equal skill, a bomber should not solo a gunboat. With a large difference in skill the bomber should (with hard work) be able to kill or nearly kill it. That of course is just my opinion.
As things stand, I have seen some gunboats do crazy things to groups of bombers. I watched a well flown OC GB take down a group of three praetorians (which weren't terrible pilots, and weren't doing anything 'wrong' as such) and only lose half it's bots.
I would still like to see a reduction in damage and increase in speed (only slight) be tested. I would gladly spend a bit of time on the test server trying it out if requested.
EDIT: I'm glad we are having a constructive discussion over this.
' Wrote:Now Loop, Ghost.. who ever complaining about the bombers and if its the reason you leaving.. i would like to say "lol" because lol is a nice word and should be used more in game.. am i right? or am i right?
Ghost PVP is fun and should be part of a space simulator.. but not all of it.. something you never understood.. what i can suggest to you is discovery of Discovery.. where PVP is welcomed and RP is the thing of the past.. i am sure you will be happy man.
Aye,thanks for the clarification Weed.But I don't really like "lol".I would rather prefer yelling "lul".
And you should really drop that attitude dude.This thread is not "PvP Whoars are to be burned"
Anyways Joe's idea is not bad.Thing is,those NPC will indeed hurt badly.That's why the bombers will need fighter escorts.Fighters cover the bombers when they do their job.
And I would love to see different Torpedos.Like...a torpedo that does less damage,but also consumes less energy,EMP Torpedos and other stuff like that.Or even making the torpedos take cargo space.It would really turn the bombers in what they should be.Not just playing around and doing nothing.
EDIT:Torpedos or not,how are we supposed to fight gunships if there's no hull breaching weapon that is energy based?I mean...ever tried hitting a Bounty Hunter Gunship with a nova?You hit once on 100 shots.
' Wrote:actually, gabor is one of those guys who just about -never- bitches about anything, so your accusations and hostile tone toward him is rather uncalled for, nighthawk. Im not saying apologize, but rather, check your tone towards people. i could say the same thing about how the LR are bitching about the greyhound, but i wont, because not only do i choose to ignore posting flamy posts, i choose to maintain peace instead of egging on others.
' Wrote:And I would love to see different Torpedos.Like...a torpedo that does less damage,but also consumes less energy,EMP Torpedos and other stuff like that.Or even making the torpedos take cargo space.It would really turn the bombers in what they should be.
The change to own gun and torpedo class opens just for that, so given time there will probably come different new anti cap equipment: EMP SN, EM Torp, "light Nova torp", heavier Nova torp etc...
Igiss says: Martin, you give them a finger, they bite off your arm.
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