In regards to piracy

[Trogdor]

I'm really getting sick of people turning things around on me. You told me to "shut up" and then got all high and mighty good guy like you did nothing wrong. Want me to drop it ... take the first step and admit you shoulda never told me to "shut up." Don't expect kind words from people when you tell them to "shut up."
// SIGNED //

Its all about balance. You can't have one side crying foul while at the same time they are just as guilty of going overboard.

For the love of lolwut, let it go. This thread isn't your personal playground, and I don't care how right you think you are. I don't care if you think you were insulted. I don't care about your opinions on taking criticism, because there is no place for criticism here. Drop it. The only words that should come out of anyone's mouth here should relate to the rule we are discussing.

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[Slainte]

An interesting thread here Trogdor ( mostly :)) kudos.

But i fear we are missing a vital point in all this, quality RP.

Its all well and good trying to figure out rules that a pirate and trader should follow in a pirating situation when we all know that there are few ( in my experience ) that will follow it. I dought the Admins will implement a new set of rules when there are tons there already and the amount of sanction attempts will completely overpower them i think.

Common sense and a bit of rp should overcome this. I have a trader ( faction ) and a smuggler and i have been pirated on both. The level of piracy has been from the outright stupid to the sublime. No set of rules will fix this but, experience and tuteridge ( spelling? ) will. Thats why Ivan and the lads did such a good job in the OPG. Took the newbies and showed them the ropes. And i wont forget the LR who do the same.

Lets not go overboard on this but instead encourage prospective pirates to join a pirating faction to learn the ropes and from there to enable them to expand their rp to a good level so that in the futer these threads shoudn't be necessary

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[mith]

Considering the pirate has no clue how much you've paid for the cargo ... and knowing that the cargo is worth far more when you sell it ... I'd have to disagree with you on the demand limit idea. And it is not OORP to leave a trader with zero profit. The pirate is not out to help you get rich ... a pirate's role play is to himself rich. But ... I will say this. The more money you make, the more money you can afford to pay the pirate. So ... if you make 10 mil in a single trip, you can surely afford to pay 10% to the pirate (a simple 1 mil). But by my experience I see way too many not even willing to give up 500k. This is what really offends me. Traders travel back and forth (endlessly) across pirate infested space (knowingly and willingly) and expect NOT to get pirated ... and then push for rules limiting what a pirate can demand. Its absurd. If anything is OORP its the trader that thinks a pirate is there to help him get rich ... and the trader that plows through hostile space expecting a free pass.

Firstly, I do not support hard limiting pirate demands. I think it would be a mistake to have a hard limit in the server rules and that sort of thing should entirely be up to the pirate to determine. However, consider this:

Your character - be it pirate or trader - tends to always frequent the same region as determined by his tag. It follows then that after some time, both the pirate and the trader would become familiar with the intricacies of the space in which they live: Local trade routes and their values; dangerous systems and lanes; local crime syndicates and individuals; local laws and such. For this reason I do believe it would be OORP for the pirate to be unaware of the value of a given cargo (and the cargo carried in any region is usually the same thing on any given trade route). Couple that with the fact that the pirate is trying to make a living from piracy (even if the player behind the keyboard isn't, you would still be roleplaying a character who makes his livelihood in this manner) and the pirate should be well aware that trying to charge too much to pass would be bad for business.

On the other side of that, the trader of course would - both in and out of roleplay - wish to avoid paying the pirate's tolls no matter the situation, as regardless of how much asked it eats into his livelihood. If a trader's route is constantly disrupted by pirates demanding he hands over all his cargo or pay tolls that mean he loses money or makes no money at all, then that trader wouldn't continue running the route and would seek his fortunes elsewhere. To my knowledge there's not a single corporate or faction ID that is restricted to running one single trade route, and so the trader would simpy leave and the pirate would gain nothing.

It's a symbiotic relationship, and one that most pirates do understand well as is testament to the fact that most pirates don't charge more than 500k to 2 mil for a transport to pass. At that level the trader takes it on the chin and the pirate can catch and charge them again on the return route and over time the trader comes to expect that paying this "protection money" is part of their routine.

Stepping OORP for a moment, by trying to charge significantly more than the cost of the cargo or equal/more than the profit the run will make for passage the trader will almost certainly decide that the pirate isn't really interested in roleplaying and simply wants to blow up a trader, and that trying to run is the best solution as they will either escape or return to the station to buy their goods again and can plot a different route to their destination. This is the reason why I chose the figure of 6 mil: Anything below that and the trader will genuinely consider doing a deal as although their profit is severely diminished, they will at least still make a profit. Remember that once a pirate has made a credit demand of the trader, the trader has accepted that this money is now lost and will weigh up whether paying or running is the best solution - a sensible pirate's demand will always ensure that the trader pays, as they wouldn't be able to carry the transports cargo themselves and would lose out massively if the trader decides to run instead of pay.

This is however a topic for another day; this is turning into more a debate about the difference between tolls/protection payments and actual piracy - the hijacking of cargo. There are very few real pirates out there and rather a lot of mafioso gangs demanding protection money/tolls - I'd like to see more pirates in all honesty, as I suspect a pair of transport ships having a fight would be rather a lot of fun and would leave a lot of time for excellent roleplaying whilst combat ensues.

[Trogdor]

Its all well and good trying to figure out rules that a pirate and trader should follow in a pirating situation when we all know that there are few ( in my experience ) that will follow it. I dought the Admins will implement a new set of rules when there are tons there already and the amount of sanction attempts will completely overpower them i think.

The whole point of this is to try and make less sanction reports by making the rules clearer, better defined. Not necessarily more restrictive.

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[Grumblesaur]

Considering the pirate has no clue how much you've paid for the cargo ... and knowing that the cargo is worth far more when you sell it ... I'd have to disagree with you on the demand limit idea. And it is not OORP to leave a trader with zero profit. The pirate is not out to help you get rich ... a pirate's role play is to himself rich. But ... I will say this. The more money you make, the more money you can afford to pay the pirate. So ... if you make 10 mil in a single trip, you can surely afford to pay 10% to the pirate (a simple 1 mil). But by my experience I see way too many not even willing to give up 500k. This is what really offends me. Traders travel back and forth (endlessly) across pirate infested space (knowingly and willingly) and expect NOT to get pirated ... and then push for rules limiting what a pirate can demand. Its absurd. If anything is OORP its the trader that thinks a pirate is there to help him get rich ... and the trader that plows through hostile space expecting a free pass.

Now remember, pirating isn't about getting rich. Trading is. Even if you own a pirate, you should still have a primary means of making a profit. Pirates should be more into it for the sake of roleplay, and traders should roleplay along with them.


And I completely and totally agree with Mith. Having to get rid of all of my cargo AND pay four million credits back when I had a smuggler was absolutely ridiculous. That's A) taking away all of someone's profit and B) putting it into the negative. No-one likes that. No-one.

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A way a lone a last a loved a long the riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend of bay,
brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.

[Bazza]

This is however a topic for another day; this is turning into more a debate about the difference between tolls/protection payments and actual piracy - the hijacking of cargo. There are very few real pirates out there and rather a lot of mafioso gangs demanding protection money/tolls - I'd like to see more pirates in all honesty, as I suspect a pair of transport ships having a fight would be rather a lot of fun and would leave a lot of time for excellent roleplaying whilst combat ensues.

I wish to put my hand up as one of the "real" pirates, of sorts. Depending on the cargo and the nearest unlawful sell point myself and the group that I'm with currently (often LR- or misc. indy pirates) will demand cargo over the credits. Also in the case of trying to run, static and/or lolwuttery, their cargo finds itself within Alsatia.:)It then goes to the nearest pirate base for processing.

It disappoints me how many ooRP dunces we encountered pillaging and plundering the Liberty satellite systems (Cali, Colo, Texas). Even got the famed "cant pierat for more than ship's price) But that, to borrow a quote, is a topic for another day.

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[Baltar]

For the love of lolwut, let it go. This thread isn't your personal playground, and I don't care how right you think you are. I don't care if you think you were insulted. I don't care about your opinions on taking criticism, because there is no place for criticism here. Drop it. The only words that should come out of anyone's mouth here should relate to the rule we are discussing.

Are you asking for civility, Trogdor? You're lecturing the wrong person if that's your goal. I've been offended on a personal level ... turn your lecture to Kurosora if you want this to be resolved. All I need is an apology or a retraction.

This thread is "in regards to piracy" ... correct? I posted a criticism of Kurosora's opinion by taking the opposite viewpoint. He didn't like it and told me to "shut up." Doesn't take many brain cells to see where the problem is. If all you want is for people to agree with your opinion then keep these topics out of the public forum. Telling me to "shut up" is telling the community (as a whole) that you are not open to dialogue or alternative opinions on the subject. Don't be closed minded sir.

My comments were on topic and right in line with the discussion within this thread. Everything was on topic until I was told to "shut up."

Now remember, pirating isn't about getting rich. Trading is. Even if you own a pirate, you should still have a primary means of making a profit. Pirates should be more into it for the sake of roleplay, and traders should roleplay along with them.
And I completely and totally agree with Mith. Having to get rid of all of my cargo AND pay four million credits back when I had a smuggler was absolutely ridiculous. That's A) taking away all of someone's profit and B) putting it into the negative. No-one likes that. No-one.

That's a matter of opinion. Most pirates are about getting rich. They specifically seek gold, treasures, etc. They don't go pirating for the exercise or the joy of blowing ships up. If there's no profit there's no point.

The only difference between a trader and a pirate is that a trader wants to make money legit and the pirate doesn't wanna deal with the red tape of the law. All pirates in history (and the present) conduct piracy as their "primary" means of income. Those Somalian pirates (who are active today) capture the ship and then ransom the ship, cargo AND the crew. When the corporation that owns the ship pay up ... they release them back to their owners (at least the crew). You might find that they receive better pay for the crew than the cargo or ship.

And thanks for agreeing with me by the way. Mith was agreeing with my comments that you quoted ... lolz.

[TFinnegan]

Gimme a break ... I'm a bit tired of this drivel.

Y'know Baltar, for all your bluster about 'being insulted' by Kurosora, You fired the first shot. See above. Anything that followed is to be expected. Grow a scar man, and wear it proudly. Quit bleedin' on the rest of us though, huh?

Ive read through this thread daily, trying to see if maybe, just maybe, we've gotten anywhere on trying to reformat/refine piracy rules to the GENERAL (not complete) agreement of the active consensus. And I have to wade through this egotistical, emotional, irrational morass, only to find that, no, we' havent gotten any further as the idea has been hijacked.

And Kurosora, You aint helpin' neither. But at least YOU offered repeated help in formatting the ruleset. Baltar...not so much.

ADMIN!

This needs to be in flood as apparently thats what it is. Perhaps a new thread that stays on target?

EDIT: If my sig weren't already tall enough...I'd ad this quote;
"You're asking for civility Trogdor? You're lecturing the wrong person if that's your goal." - Baltar
priceless

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[Grumblesaur]

Are you asking for civility, Trogdor? You're lecturing the wrong person if that's your goal. I've been offended on a personal level ... turn your lecture to Kurosora if you want this to be resolved. All I need is an apology or a retraction.

This thread is "in regards to piracy" ... correct? I posted a criticism of Kurosora's opinion by taking the opposite viewpoint. He didn't like it and told me to "shut up." Doesn't take many brain cells to see where the problem is. If all you want is for people to agree with your opinion then keep these topics out of the public forum. Telling me to "shut up" is telling the community (as a whole) that you are not open to dialogue or alternative opinions on the subject. Don't be closed minded sir.

My comments were on topic and right in line with the discussion within this thread. Everything was on topic until I was told to "shut up."
That's a matter of opinion. Most pirates are about getting rich. They specifically seek gold, treasures, etc. They don't go pirating for the exercise or the joy of blowing ships up. If there's no profit there's no point.

The only difference between a trader and a pirate is that a trader wants to make money legit and the pirate doesn't wanna deal with the red tape of the law. All pirates in history (and the present) conduct piracy as their "primary" means of income. Those Somalian pirates (who are active today) capture the ship and then ransom the ship, cargo AND the crew. When the corporation that owns the ship pay up ... they release them back to their owners (at least the crew). You might find that they receive better pay for the crew than the cargo or ship.

And thanks for agreeing with me by the way. Mith was agreeing with my comments that you quoted ... lolz.

Now if a pirate REALLY pirated for profit, would it be a good thing? Think about it...

You are a trader. You come across a pirate who steals for the sole purpose of funding all of his characters on the server. You fly a Train, he flies a barghest. You have 30mil, and are about to make 5mil with your next run. He is looking to purchase a new gunboat. He demands 5mil from you. What do you do?

My point is, we can have realism, but only to a degree to make things fair and fun for all.

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A way a lone a last a loved a long the riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend of bay,
brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.

[Trogdor]

Are you asking for civility, Trogdor? You're lecturing the wrong person if that's your goal. I've been offended on a personal level ... turn your lecture to Kurosora if you want this to be resolved. All I need is an apology or a retraction.

No, you need to shut your mouth. You've made it quite clear that you're incapable of dropping it. You don't need an apology, you need to stop clicking on my thread looking for self-satisfaction.

And Finn, please stop throwing wood on the fire.

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