Order / Corsair alliance

[Zelot]

BD alliance will only happen if the corsair alliance was wiped from ever having existed. It won't work if we just cancel or end the alliance.

So now we are just going to change history?

Edit: I dont mind the ending of the alliance between the Corsairs and Order, but for the Corsairs to be neutral to the Order, there needs to be a reason for them to be neutral, what do the Order give the Corsairs that would stop Corsairs from robbing them blind if given the opportunity.

---

 

[reavengitair]

Nope, not at all Zelot.

What I'm implying is that a Blood Dragon alliance would ONLY happen if history were changed from it ever having existed. Not that we SHOULD change history because we want the BD and the Order to be allied.

I don't mind if the order stays allied or are neutral. Both ways, it's still fun to RP as an order.

[Tenacity]

BD alliance will only happen if the corsair alliance was wiped from ever having existed. It won't work if we just cancel or end the alliance.

You know full well we cannot retcon something in that manner, what's been done was not the choice of the majority of order players, and dragon players should not hold it against them.

Technically, we've held good relations with the dragons despite the corsair alliance, remember that your faction was not the first dragon group to exist.

Edit: I dont mind the ending of the alliance between the Corsairs and Order, but for the Corsairs to be neutral to the Order, there needs to be a reason for them to be neutral, what do the Order give the Corsairs that would stop Corsairs from robbing them blind if given the opportunity.

How about the promise that we wont come down on them like a ten ton hammer, that work for you? The Corsairs have enough enemies to deal with, without antagonizing one of the most technologically advanced organizations within Sirius.

That, and the fact that many corsair individuals have worked with us in the past due to the current allegiance, I doubt most of them would be eager to turn around and stab people they thought of as friends up until this point.

---

[reavengitair]

You know full well we cannot retcon something in that manner, what's been done was not the choice of the majority of order players, and dragon players should not hold it against them.

Technically, we've held good relations with the dragons despite the corsair alliance, remember that your faction was not the first dragon group to exist.

I'm not holding a grudge against any players, remember I'm in the order too, and I love you guys. Nor am I saying that I should be making this decision as the ]bd[ faction leader. I'm sure any other person who knows Blood Dragon RP (including NovaPG) would consider an alliance with the Corsairs AND the hogosha after how much the Blood Dragons helped them in SP, an act of betrayal and treachery - the very thing that the Blood Dragons stand against in Kusari (their formation came with the shogun assassinated by well... Samura and the KNF)

[Tenacity]

I'm not holding a grudge against any players, remember I'm in the order too, and I love you guys. Nor am I saying that I should be making this decision as the ]bd[ faction leader. I'm sure any other person who knows Blood Dragon RP (including NovaPG) would consider an alliance with the Corsairs AND the hogosha after how much the Blood Dragons helped them in SP, an act of betrayal and treachery - the very thing that the Blood Dragons stand against in Kusari (their formation came with the shogun assassinated by well... Samura and the KNF)

I understand where you're coming from with the statement, but you need to understand that it was never our choice - the decision to change order allies was made by the mod's developers long ago, and it's likely that order players at the time had no real say in the matter.

Frankly, the Corsair-Order alliance should never have existed as far as I'm concerned. There was no reason that the order would have given up the numerous allies they had to join 'the enemy'. Nearly every faction we were working with in the nomad war was hostile towards the corsairs, and whoever made the decision to change our allegiances in the disco mod must have been out of his mind.

At any rate, there is no way we can re-write history to say that the alliance never existed, but that should not exclude the re-establishment of old allegiances. The hogosha can be left out entirely, as the order has never worked with them publicly. The corsairs... well, we've never helped with their disputes unless our own supply lines or craft were in danger, and technically the corder-corsair alliance should not be known of to most factions in sirius - the fact that many groups use the corsair alliance against us is nothing more than a gross example of metagaming.

---

[reavengitair]

I understand where you're coming from with the statement, but you need to understand that it was never our choice - the decision to change order allies was made by the mod's developers long ago, and it's likely that order players at the time had no real say in the matter.

Frankly, the Corsair-Order alliance should never have existed as far as I'm concerned. There was no reason that the order would have given up the numerous allies they had to join 'the enemy'. Nearly every faction we were working with in the nomad war was hostile towards the corsairs, and whoever made the decision to change our allegiances in the disco mod must have been out of his mind.

At any rate, there is no way we can re-write history to say that the alliance never existed, but that should not exclude the re-establishment of old allegiances. The hogosha can be left out entirely, as the order has never worked with them publicly. The corsairs... well, we've never helped with their disputes unless our own supply lines or craft were in danger, and technically the corder-corsair alliance should not be known of to most factions in sirius - the fact that many groups use the corsair alliance against us is nothing more than a gross example of metagaming.

Yeah, I'm with you on that, and I know that the developers made this decision long ago. The Corsair-order alliance was pretty rubbish and I used to be against it (when I was in the order) but now I don't particularly care (no offence) as I've given up battling this cause.

However, at this rate, don't expect a BD-Order alliance.

At any rate, there is no way we can re-write history to say that the alliance never existed, but that should not exclude the re-establishment of old allegiances. The hogosha can be left out entirely, as the order has never worked with them publicly. The corsairs... well, we've never helped with their disputes unless our own supply lines or craft were in danger, and technically the corder-corsair alliance should not be known of to most factions in sirius - the fact that many groups use the corsair alliance against us is nothing more than a gross example of metagaming.

Didn't the outcast alliances get changed? After all, the BD and Outcast alliances don't exist anymore. Wiped from history. Do the same to the Corsairs/Order?

[Tenacity]

Didn't the outcast alliances get changed? After all, the BD and Outcast alliances don't exist anymore. Wiped from history. Do the same to the Corsairs/Order?

The outcast-dragon allegiance wasnt 'wiped from history', it was simply cut off. Around the end of 4.84, the dragons grew increasingly weary of outcast behavior and their heavy focus on cardamine distribution, and the casts were offering little to help the dragons with their goals, so the alliance was ended.

To my knowledge, no longstanding allegiance or relation between factions has ever simply been 'erased'. Allegiances and diplomacy may change, but the history record is always there. Blood dragons were once allied with the outcasts, and nothing will ever change anyone's views on that - they may no longer be allied, but history books dont change just because someone decides to stop working with someone else.

---

[reavengitair]

Argh bleh. I was referring to this:

Outcasts begin looking for new allies across Sirius. The Liberty Rogues, Mollys and Golden Chrysanthemums sign the treaty.

On the official disco timeline. I need to check the news on Kyoto, etc. though.

[... kur nubėgo?]

About history which won't change. Somehow Corsairs no longer have the OSris blueprints, and now do not build the ship themselves. Thats really strange.

Anyhow if such decision was made, I think people need to cover other matters such as Order - Corsair alliance.

ANd tenacity, yes, Osiris no longer avalible for Corsairs. (Im just waiting, untill someone will rebuy us a ship. OR will let us have it since that ship haves long history in OPG). Here is the new infocard: http://discoveryfl.com/wiki/index.php?titl...CV-1_Battleship

---

Omega Pirates Guild

History of OPG | Antonio "Vilkas" Devivar

[Anunaki]

I voted keep the alliance.

Honnestly I dont think there are more reasons for Order to be allied with Corsaires than Order allied with lets say... Liberty rogues.

But in the strategic sense (who is next to who and who is already fighting who), especially with who is the neighbor of who, it makes a lot of sense.

My most important reason for disagreeing with you is how you picture 'good' and 'bad' in a very simplistic way.

Arguments agianst:
* Corsairs are bad people. Trying to conquer us much territory as possible. Plunder the riches and fuel their empire, no matter by what means. Rememeber good old movies abouta villains who dreamed abotu world domination and laughed like a madmen?:crazy:

Corsaires landed live on a lifeless crap pebble in the middle of no where. They were already forced to leave some of their brothers (the Outcasts) behind next to Malta, leaving them for dead because they didnt know they would be able to survive by adapting to the cardamine grass.

On Crete, they were starving like flies. When they made contact with other houses, they had almost no working economy of their own, they had nothing to give in any trade relation, cause they had... nothing.

So, having the choice between continuing with their miserable existance and improving their lives through piracy, the chose the second. At least some of them did, and those are the onces that thrived and built the Corsair empire.

That may be 'bad' behavior, but its the normal behavior that most human beings display. If you gotta kill a cow to survive, you kill the cow. If you gotta kill your neighbor to survive, you kill your neighbor. When you gotta kill a nomad to survive, you kill the nomad. Sure its arguably 'bad' to kill all 3 of them. In the startrek universe, it would be bad to kill an alien spiecies too and Order could be considered the bad guys and Oracles the good guys (if the nomads would really be willing to live peacefully, that is).

Order are good guys. Who cares to save everyone from terrible nomads.

The Order's only agenda is to defend humanity from nomads, mostly by killing them. If this were startrek, Order would be the evil extremists, and the tree-hugger Oracles would be the heros.

The Order is not 'good' in a way that it will stop the little pirate from stealing your grandma?'s purse. In fact, they would rather ally with the pirate than your grandma, because the pirate is stronger and can help them more. Possibly, Order would kill your grandma without heistation if it helped them fight the nomads.

They did all that.

They blew up the Donau with all hands. They didnt kill only Schulzki, but every single one of the crew who didnt know what the hell was going on.

They allied with pirates. ROgues, Bunschu, Blood dragons. When you ally with someone, you dont do it our of sympathy for them or because you think they were nice to your grandma. You do it because they have something you want and you have something they want, and you would both gain from fighting on each others sides. When you dont gain anything, the alliance stops there.

* Order tend to have variuos allies which are Corsairs enemies. Like Blood Dragons or Even Outcasts. I dont think COrsairs would trust them in the first place.

Not anymore. Stalin and USA were allied in WW2, stopped right after WW2. West germany allied with USA, east germany with soviet russia. Governments change, people change, motivations change. Iraq was ally of the USA against Iran, then not anymore when Iran Iraq war ended. Alliances are not about trust towards nations, they are about who needs what.

* Corsairs gains nothing from current alliance. Order do not help at war with outcasts. Defend of gamma? dont give me that. THe answer- you dont. I was flying quite a lot on my corsair character, and fought Outcasts in gamma about 8 - 9 times. No order shown up.

Corsairs gain logistsics. Bases to dock at, information, limited trade, and also help in combat. I myself helped Corsairs in gamma several times. Why Order some people dont? Well, all the times I helped against Outcasts, I got yelled at in ooc chat. Got called Order indy lolwutt and stuff like that. Because I helped my ally. I personaly didnt care, but some ORder people actually listen to all the crybabies in the other factions... thats why they will watch their allies die, cause they want to be liked by the 'veteran' players in OC and nomads who are killing you...
There is also another side to the Outcast vs Corsair war: Its the way they behave towards nomads. Corsaires shoot them near the jump that leads to the nomads systems (see background story of the Corsair graveyard). Outcast see the nomads as 'guardians' of their dead and spirits, and respect nomads.
Pretty obvious who Order would side with?

Arguments for being in alliance.

* Its canon. I dont know why, I cant explain why, but some from devs tells it - I do, no matter if it ruins my rp or do not complies with logical thinking. Yes? This is crap - not an argument. Same as: "It is becouse I say so" does not help to convince people on regular terms, does it?

You can RP as someone who doenst like the alliance. You are not forced to help your ally if you want to. That actually gives room for some interesting and not so 'black and white' rp in my opinion.

* Technology share.. mainly Osiris. It was the main reason why we got in alliance. Let me quite one of the senor members, Elder of the Corsairs:

... SNIP...

This is not enought reason to be in an alliance, and to trow a lot of resources to help order than it .. shakes it heads from Corsairs.
Well what you think?

Corsairs give Order *some* resources, not all the stuff they could ever ask for. Order helps them fight the nomads, who they are fighting anyway. ANd they dont lose anything.

Also, USA are allied with a lot of small and poor coutries. They gain nothing from it, exept than having 1 military base there. And because they have absolutely not reason not to be allied with them.

Again... you dont really have to help Order when oyu dont feel liek it.