Quote:1. CR doesn't want to be subject to the same mix of lolwutters and awesome people every other faction (except the easily abused ones) are because it will tarnish their image. I fail to see how the assortment of indies other factions deal with every day could be worse than the regular firestorms CR already endured back in the day for being a literal BSG import. Also of note is the wide variety of utterly great independents I've run into. Varyag, for instance, was a Hessian indie cruiser who regularly helped us out in the RHA when I was here before. He's a talented cruiser pilot, and a good RPer whose contributions I was always grateful for. We offered him a spot in the RHA, and he declined, but continued being an overall asset and stalwart ally. The RHA would have suffered as an organization without the regular contributions of great indies like him.
What you fail to mention here is that CR have repeatedly got flames because
-they are "imports" similar to BSG
-people say they dont belong here in that place doing what they do
-they get rules lawyered and yelled at ooc pretty much everytime they stop a slave/cardi smuggler
The cause of this mainly is because they were the only ones interdicting the extremely lucrative and easy cardi/slave run which was used for powertrading. Many time it was said that they as a faction should be moved or changed or outlawed, giving the pretext that this invite only faction was composed solely of terrible lolwutters.
I would say that one difference is that nobody ever asked the LN or Order to be moved from where they are or banned or that they should change their RP core.
Now... consider this and imagine what would happen if now you had CR indies who just want to get back at the OC for what ever... and would fly as many caps as they could and were not obliged to follow CR faction orders.
Would the OCs be more happy? Would the CR be better off? Who would benefit? The only diffence between a CR indi and factionalized CR is that the indy wont have to obey orders, and that he received no or less CR RP/military/pvp training. Would that be a benefit to him?
Quote:2. CR doesn't want to risk any indies "messing with the story"...which is really a strange fear, seeing as the interactions that take place every day in the Taus _should already be_ messing with the story. Things change, and people/factions don't always act the way you expect/want them to. They surprise you sometimes, they act on their own initiative, and thus become a living part of the story. Like Sprolf has said, that's part of roleplaying in a community...other people get to play, too, and not always just exactly how you say they should. Makes things more interesting, anyway. Nothing wrong with stories/biographies, but when the story in question is of an entire faction, a nation, in a hotly contested part of Sirius...I really don't think it should be a solo affair.
Solely from the RP point of view...
They are a small militaristic democracy with mixed ethnic background that differs from those of the 4/5 sleeper ships. It doesnt really leave much room for people to form subfactions or fly around in non affilitated privateering ships, or pronounce themselves fllet admiral of his own 1 man subfaction. Lets say I like the Kiretsu RP. Im just going to put Kiretsu in my name and invite some of my budies and RP everything differntly and always hang out where Dab and the other Kiretsu there. How do oyu think they would like that? Would kinda mess up his RP no? The CR RP was made by players like the Kiretsu, not like the RP of IMG of GC which was made by microsoft.
Quote:3. CR fears that a horde of lolwut PvP whores in CR caps will inevitably ensue, raping Alpha on a daily basis. They compare the CR ID restriction to the fact that the SCRA and Phantom IDs are restricted...which is really extremely silly, considering how the SCRA and Phantom IDs have few restrictions as to who can fight what, whereas the CR ID is very similar to all other lawful IDs. It's not something that is any more open for abuse than any other lawful ID, and considerably less so than, say, the BHG or indie Pirate/Freelancer IDs.
You are twisting something here...
The SCRA, Phantoms, and Nomads have those rights and can go everywhere they want because they actually have to, but because they are privileged to do so. You could give SCRA and Phantoms a limited zone of influence, and restricted engagement rights like everybody else. Its the easiest thing in the world. They would get flamed less. (well SCRA dont get flamed anyway because their RP makes more sense).
And Keepers.... give them the ZOI of where nomad npcs are. Make their ships weaker. The Order would have something to do, there would be no more whining by keepers that they are outnumbered, and there would be no more whining that the order has nothing to do or too weak ships. Nothing stops you from doing that... except.... that some people want to be a privileged bunch, want overpwered ships, and want to go everywhere and feel special. The CR do non of that.
Nomads are a core part of Freelancer, like the Order and the vanilla factions. If you are going to complain about people being selfish and constraining.... talk to the nomads first.
THATS what I said. And you twisting what I said to make it sound like I said everyone should get overpowered nomad ships and go everyone.. now THATS just silly of you.
Quote:That, and Tau-23 is a battleground in part because the CR is there, trying to block off a system that is an integral part of the Outcasts' cardi run to the western half of Sirius (if I'm mistaken in this, then I apologize). The systems are small and undeveloped because they weren't intended to house this much activity...KNF and QCP and IMG and Zoners and CR and OC and GC and random traders/miners all play in this little sandbox...making the CR ID open to indies wouldn't change much of anything in that regard.
Appart from making an existing problem worse....
Quote:4. CR is the sole creation of its authors and as such, they feel they should have total control over it all. I've yet to hear a single _good_ reason as to why this should be so. I understand the feeling "This is my/our baby, I don't want anybody screwing it up"...but by bringing it into the Disco community, they make it a part of Sirius, a part of the background of Discovery...and, imho, lose the right to control every aspect with an iron fist. It's like a parent giving their son/daughter a car for their 16th birthday, but never letting them drive it alone, and only to certain destinations. By bringing it to the community, I feel you have something of a responsibility to let go and actually permit the community to participate in it.../without/ such direct oversight as being in an official faction entails.
Maybe they bought the car for themselves, and not for the daughter? Ever thought of that?
Kinda like SCRA? Or phantoms... (well they kinda kidnapped the ship models instead of creaing any). Or Keepers... but they kinda didnt invent the nomads either.
Quote:5. The absurd idea that the CR ID shouldn't become freely available until all the other restricted IDs are. This should be obviously ridiculous, but some seem to be taking it seriously. Phantoms can attack anything, anywhere, anytime, essentially; as can Terrorists and Keepers and Wilde. SCRA can do almost as much, since almost everybody in Sirius is their enemy. This is not at all the case with the CR, so the idea that this is somehow a more dangerous ID to be in the hands of indies than your run-of-the-mill IDs is bogus.
See my answer to 3. SCRA Keepers and Phantoms can do that not because their RP requires it, but because they are the uebermen here. If you wanna call someone selfish go to talk to them.
As for your and my comparison of CR to Navy, Order, Keepers....
CR: is the easiest invite only faction to get into. The only conditions are that you dont act like a total retard, can RP right (or are willing to do so), and that you follow military structure. Once you are in you receive an enourmous amount of training and advice, wether you are new or old.
Navy: Doesnt teach or offer anyone squat, as far as I know. Correct me if Im msitaken.
Order: Doesnt teach anyone squat, except inside their invite faction. Is elitist in recruitment for Order|, leaving the Order indies a squabling mess.
Keepers: Elitist, gives themselves ueberpowered stuff, keeps its own numbers low, goes everywhere and kills everyone, but survives by complaining that people dare to attack them and not lose while doing it. Then they wonder why they get flamed a lot.
Now... which of those 4 need to change?
I'd say the last 3 should pick up some of the CR methods.
' Wrote:What you fail to mention here is that CR have repeatedly got flames because
-they are "imports" similar to BSG
-people say they dont belong here in that place doing what they do
-they get rules lawyered and yelled at ooc pretty much everytime they stop a slave/cardi smuggler
The cause of this mainly is because they were the only ones interdicting the extremely lucrative and easy cardi/slave run which was used for powertrading. Many time it was said that they as a faction should be moved or changed or outlawed, giving the pretext that this invite only faction was composed solely of terrible lolwutters.
I would say that one difference is that nobody ever asked the LN or Order to be moved from where they are or banned or that they should change their RP core.
Now... consider this and imagine what would happen if now you had CR indies who just want to get back at the OC for what ever... and would fly as many caps as they could and were not obliged to follow CR faction orders.
Would the OCs be more happy? Would the CR be better off? Who would benefit? The only diffence between a CR indi and factionalized CR is that the indy wont have to obey orders, and that he received no or less CR RP/military/pvp training. Would that be a benefit to him?
You're doing here what most of the ones that flame the CR do. You're generalizing. The problem is not the faction. The problems are generated by some points like some of the members that are in key commanding positions. I must say that CR was the first faction for me and I still like the RP behind it BUT I'm not in CR anymore due to the behavior of some of their members. So an indy CR would fit best for players like me, that don't like to be lead by some persons.
' Wrote:Solely from the RP point of view...
They are a small militaristic democracy with mixed ethnic background that differs from those of the 4/5 sleeper ships. It doesnt really leave much room for people to form subfactions or fly around in non affilitated privateering ships, or pronounce themselves fllet admiral of his own 1 man subfaction. Lets say I like the Kiretsu RP. Im just going to put Kiretsu in my name and invite some of my budies and RP everything differntly and always hang out where Dab and the other Kiretsu there. How do oyu think they would like that? Would kinda mess up his RP no? The CR RP was made by players like the Kiretsu, not like the RP of IMG of GC which was made by microsoft.
First, there's no such thing as militaristic democracy. This is the point that your leaders fail to understand. CR is pure militaristic. If you want to be CR, you MUST be in the military fleet. Indy CRs could RP civilians too. Your comparison with the Kiretsu is not the best example. You can RP using their story. All you need is a GC ID and that's about it... Indies were never in the position to influence the storyline.
' Wrote:You are twisting something here...
The SCRA, Phantoms, and Nomads have those rights and can go everywhere they want because they actually have to, but because they are privileged to do so. You could give SCRA and Phantoms a limited zone of influence, and restricted engagement rights like everybody else. Its the easiest thing in the world. They would get flamed less. (well SCRA dont get flamed anyway because their RP makes more sense).
And Keepers.... give them the ZOI of where nomad npcs are. Make their ships weaker. The Order would have something to do, there would be no more whining by keepers that they are outnumbered, and there would be no more whining that the order has nothing to do or too weak ships. Nothing stops you from doing that... except.... that some people want to be a privileged bunch, want overpwered ships, and want to go everywhere and feel special. The CR do non of that.
Nomads are a core part of Freelancer, like the Order and the vanilla factions. If you are going to complain about people being selfish and constraining.... talk to the nomads first.
THATS what I said. And you twisting what I said to make it sound like I said everyone should get overpowered nomad ships and go everyone.. now THATS just silly of you.
' Wrote:Appart from making an existing problem worse....
Look at the order, look at Minor... same thing... this shouldn't be something to deny others the right to RP a colonial... citizen.
' Wrote:Maybe they bought the car for themselves, and not for the daughter? Ever thought of that?
Kinda like SCRA? Or phantoms... (well they kinda kidnapped the ship models instead of creaing any). Or Keepers... but they kinda didnt invent the nomads either.
I see no similarities between those IDs and the CR one. They should remain restricted especially because they can do whatever they wish. CR has lots of restrictions and it shouldn't be compared to those IDs.
' Wrote:See my answer to 3. SCRA Keepers and Phantoms can do that not because their RP requires it, but because they are the uebermen here. If you wanna call someone selfish go to talk to them.
As for your and my comparison of CR to Navy, Order, Keepers....
CR: is the easiest invite only faction to get into. The only conditions are that you dont act like a total retard, can RP right (or are willing to do so), and that you follow military structure. Once you are in you receive an enourmous amount of training and advice, wether you are new or old.
Navy: Doesnt teach or offer anyone squat, as far as I know. Correct me if Im msitaken.
Order: Doesnt teach anyone squat, except inside their invite faction. Is elitist in recruitment for Order|, leaving the Order indies a squabling mess.
Keepers: Elitist, gives themselves ueberpowered stuff, keeps its own numbers low, goes everywhere and kills everyone, but survives by complaining that people dare to attack them and not lose while doing it. Then they wonder why they get flamed a lot.
Now... which of those 4 need to change?
I'd say the last 3 should pick up some of the CR methods.
CR: It is easy to get in but not everybody wants to be IN, under the command of someone. Advices you can get from other factions/players. This shouldn't concern you. CR =/= Angels.
Idea > Make 2 IDs: Colonial Guard ID and Colonial ID
' Wrote:CR: It is easy to get in but not everybody wants to be IN, under the command of someone. Advices you can get from other factions/players. This shouldn't concern you. CR =/= Angels.
Idea > Make 2 IDs: Colonial Guard ID and Colonial ID
So, nobody but the Angels should be interested in helping new players? What if I like it? Should everybody on Disco refuse to help people unless they're an Angel? Huh?!
The reason I asked we leave this thread alone for now is that, as before, the argument continues to be that the CR should be subject to certain things just because most other factions are. That's already been discussed and played out in the previous pages more than enough. Unless people are going to start bringing up new reasons for things instead of some sole desire to judiciously maintain the status quo - that is, good reasons that are not "you have to because all the other factions have to" - this thread's continuation is a waste of time, effort, and bandwidth.
To use your own words for my nefarious purposes - "this shouldn't concern you"!
I didn't say you shouldn't help new players. Of course you should but this is not the target of the CR ID as your friends suggested.
It concerns me as it concerns any other member of this community. I saw the CR ID/story, I like it but I can't play it...
Let's say there's a nice faction with a new idea and awesome story. You love it. Getting in is easy but the people there are not what you were looking for. What would you do?
You are afraid that a bunch of indies (that MUST be lolwuts - because that's what you think all indies are) will attract more bad feedback for the official =CR=. Well, I think this will lift some of the blame from the official faction (that of course if the =CR= itself isn't breking the rules)
' Wrote:You are afraid that a bunch of indies (that MUST be lolwuts - because that's what you think all indies are) will attract more bad feedback for the official =CR=.
I'm going to literally quote myself.
' Wrote:As has been repeated many times in the thread, the CR are open to individual people interested in becoming indies but insist they have the final word on whether each case flies or not.
Dear Vampyroteuthis.Infernalis, whoever you are, and I don't care, is there any point, in mentioning "Keepers, uber weapons, uber ships, nerf, nerf, nerf " in your (mostly) every post?
This thread is about CR, so try not to include Keepers in this thread. Kthxbai.
Agmen of Eladesor Wrote:But you either follow our rules here and work with us - or STFU and GTFO.
The =CR= has every right in the world to stay an invite-only faction if they want to be one. It's their faction, and while there are many things I dislike about some of their members and leadership principles, this is actually something I have to commend them for - they keep their RP coherent by not allowing some random indies to mess it up for them while still being liberal towards indies flying for the CR with their approval.
' Wrote:Keepers: Elitist, gives themselves ueberpowered stuff, keeps its own numbers low, goes everywhere and kills everyone, but survives by complaining that people dare to attack them and not lose while doing it. Then they wonder why they get flamed a lot.
This friendly fellow disagrees with you. He'd also like to tell you that our only actually overpowered ship is our light fighter, and most of our victories stem from the PvP skill and teamwork of our members. We get attacked a lot, we've got to learn from that somehow, don't we, Karlotta?
I have decided to make my weekly post here...of all places...because I was experiencing an urge and my Barbed Strangler Warriors were incapable of suppressing said urge as it had WAAGH!, which rendered my attempts null and void.
Firstly:
"So I pose this; Lift the restrictions on the CR ID. Perhaps at the coming of 4.86. If it all goes wrong and indies screw you over, change it back, simple as that."
Perhaps it didn't occur to you but...as soon as a restricted faction opens the floodgates for the indies, there's no going back. As others have voiced here, to make such a faction unrestricted is to basically allow people to do the exact same thing as they would in the faction, but without having to abide with the orders given them by the Officials. To give the indies a place there would be to effectively create a copy and paste of the Order as it is now, namely having indies left and right completely disregard the orders of a superior officer due to A) lack of knowledge, B) lack of interaction, and/or C) blatant insubordination because they don't care anyway.
Being in an official faction forces you to take more responsibility generally, especially when it comes to dealing with superior officers, and as such results in far less of these roleplay problems. Additionally, the persons in the faction are much more immersed in the mechanics and lore of the faction, allowing the newer players among them to learn and improve. This does not mean they always do, but there is far more room for them to. Of course, all of this also depends on the faction itself in regards to how effective this immersion is.
Want to be a Colonial? Join the faction. You don't want the responsibilities that come with it? Well, that's your choice. The "association with the lolwutery of the faction" is also something you'll have to live with. Allow me to suggest that, if you don't like that, join them and labor to improve it. Also, I advise you learn to discern what is and isn't worth your bandwidth when it comes to "Community Reputation". Its what you do about it that matters, not what they think about you.
Secondly,
"Vampyroteuthis.Infernalis"...Karlotta, the being with a thousand names...surely you have something better to do with your time? You have the internet at your disposal. You could go learn a foreign language with all the information and dedication you spend posting here. Allow me to suggest that you go try it.
Thirdly,
"Well, thats the thing, even if they are originally an import, I think the RP is beleivable and good enough to be built upon by the ENTIRE community, not just faction members. A faction member isn't going to speak in argument over another faction member about something, but an indy would."
I give you full marks for intelligence, but limited in foresight, you are. Eat more carrots [and cookies] you must.
If you want to build upon it within the faction, why not aid the faction members with said suggestive development instead of simply hindering it by tying them down with uncontrollable indies? Want their roleplay to improve? Join the faction. Talk to the other members about it. You'll get much more ears if you're one of their own anyway. Once again, this can be done without opening the floodgates for the indies.
As I'm continuing to read, I have started to wonder if you're looking to improve the faction, but trying to solve it in the wrong way. With that in mind, consider my suggestions. When it comes to Community Reputation, its pretty much all a popularity contest, and there'll always be someone else. Ergo, its better to ignore Community-imposed reputation than operate with it as your standard of measurement for what you do and don't want to do. If anything, you doing exceedingly well in the faction only fights against that imposed reputation.
In the end, it boils down to whether you have fun or don't have fun. If you think it'd be fun to improve CR's roleplay depth or help the "lolwut" officials become more civilized, join the faction. You might have more fun than you expected in ways you also might not have anticipated.
If you don't think it'd be fun to have a reputation pinned on you by the community that you don't feel befits you, well...guess what? This is Disco. Need I say more?
Wort.
"He who has one thousand friends will find he has not a friend to spare, and he who has one enemy will find him everywhere."
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