5.3 - Hotfix 1

[Chenzo-]

Before I'll say anything else, I want to thank the dev team for their hard work. It's more than I would ever expect from a project that's run on pure passion. So, thank you.

With that said, I can't help but note that for me, the current patch has been... Not a pleasant one. I feel like I have some feedback to give, even though I don't think it will make a difference.

First, the lack of Baffin-Tau connection.
I'm not sure what the purpose of removing the Baffin corridor was. All it does is significantly lengthen the trading paths. So much so that it makes more sense to just fly the other way often. Personally, I found a use for it last month for trading copper, suitable for my RP. I'll probably abandon it now, because it's become too much of a chore. It wasn't the most profitable route I've ever seen, especially with the gold-iridium route still in its current form. A very strange change that many people seem to dislike. You want activity in the Houses? Then add a reason to go there, besides the fact that we will be forced to do so simply because there is no other way.

Second, the eventual return of reputation requirement for trading.
Again, I don't understand the purpose of this. You are not solving the powertrader problem, you are just adding more unnecessary complications for everyone. Instead of removing and complicating things, please consider adding alternatives that incentivize RP? For example, a reward for escorting trading ships.

And finally... The missiles.
The most annoying thing about this patch for me personally, as a mainly snub player. Now every vhf is essentially forced to use missiles. I hate missiles. They are coarse and rough and irritating and they get everywhere. They are the manifestation of when the game starts playing itself, without the player's participation.

I am far from an ace, but I still think it is an extremely cheap source of guaranteed damage, without regard for the player's accuracy. Every time I meet someone in pvp who uses missiles, I know I'm going to have a bad time. I personally refused to use missiles on principle because I didn't want other players to have the same feelings when they met me in pvp.

Considering vhf being the most common snub class, missiles will now be literally everywhere.

Every.
Single.
Fight.

As a consequence, this made me lose any desire to participate in group snub pvp. Not because I'll die; I died all the time anyway and had no problem with it. But because I don't see the point in "playing" like that.

The sentiment you share in this statement is exactly why this server went from "fighting to get a slot in 200" to where it is today.

As a whole the patch has some really good stuff.

Unfortunately shadowed by the hideous changes which literally nobody likes, implemented for what appears to be no actual reason apart from upsetting what player base is left.

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[Nodoka Hanamura]

Unfortunately shadowed by the hideous changes which literally nobody likes, implemented for what appears to be no actual reason apart from upsetting what player base is left.

Amen.

---

[Antonio]

A couple of things to address regarding the Barrier Pass shortcut:

1. When connections/bases/systems change, economy gets re-calculated automatically. With the way the economy formula for HRCs works, it favors longer distances (the sweet spot is about 20-25 minutes of travel time). This means that in general when travel time increases, profits go up. For this specific example of Copper to Gallia, or any other location that would have used the Barrier Pass last month, profit of hauling went up, not down. Worst case, if the haul is too long, you can log off half way through, continue next time, and still have more CSU overall.

2. Outcasts hauling Cardamine from Malta to Manhattan via the Barrier Pass: The Barrier Pass was not a vanilla connection, as neither Baffin nor Coronado are vanilla systems.

3. Outcasts do not haul Cardamine via the Barrier Pass in canon lore. The main path is via Bretonia to Trafalgar, Mactan, then Liberty.

4. Barrier Pass was not the fastest route to get from Malta to Manhattan in 5.2. That was Bretonia via Leeds -> Magellan. Then Kusari via Kyushu. And only in 3rd place, Barrier Pass.

5. Outcast players did not majorly use the Barrier Pass when smuggling cardamine. Some people did, but as is the case with most routes, the most amount of players opted for the option that nets the highest profit for the shortest amount of time, which is the Bretonian route.

---

Why was the Coronado connection changed? Primarily to reduce travel time across the Taus for combat ships and increase player interaction via faster response times. Not to give activity to the Houses. Bretonia does not get a major spike in activity because a smuggler passes through the northern part of Leeds. A Bretonian player would have to be already in Leeds waiting before they had a chance to catch a smuggler. Conversely, smugglers are not forced to spend a big portion of their route travelling through Bretonia and tremble at the sight of lawfuls patrolling the area to catch them. They have to travel half a system before they are out. People who are worse off from this change compared to before are the ones relying on Copper as the POB resource. And I understand you, this is a negative change for a player only caring about the POB side of Copper with bases in specific spots such as Gallia, while not caring about combat ship traversal through the Taus or Copper as an HRC.

If the connection remained stable, it would kill off any potential of Copper as an HRC into Gallia, and instead of POB owners complaining we'd get regular traders complaining that the profits got cut. If we left it as it was in 5.2, people would complain that reaching Coronado from ex. Tau-23 takes too long to respond to or start player interaction. Whichever way you choose, someone will complain and someone will be better off. In this specific example, how much worse is a player who owns a POB in Champagne? In 5.2 the route would have been Coronado -> Baffin -> Tau-29 -> Tau-23 -> Languedoc -> Ile-de-France -> Champagne. Now, the route is Coronado -> Cortez -> Manchester -> Newcastle -> Tau-31 -> Tau-23 -> Languedoc -> Ile-de-France -> Champagne. 6 systems versus 8. Is it longer travel time? Absolutely. Is it that much worse, that the travel time increased 2x, 3x, or more? No. It is a 2 system difference, with a higher % of the route being trade lanes due to the Bretonian path.

---

This change only revealed the actual issue, an underlaying one with economy: balancing POB recipes. Some location are superior to others when it comes to overall POB potential and versatility to make equipment. The best examples of this are systems like Omega-3, or Rheinland having an advantage in 5.2 due to the Ablatives being so prevalent in so many recipes. The actual solution to getting the POBs in Gallia be more competitive with the rest is to do a rebalance of POB equipment recipes, something the economy team is already planning to do. They haven't managed to finish it in time for 5.3, but hopefully it will come in the near future.

And as a last note - keep up the feedback, everyone. This has been one of the largest updates in terms of workload in the history of the mod, with thousands of changes. It is only natural that in so many changes, there will be certain changes that certain players dislike. I would be shocked if it wasn't so. I can only hope that players who do feel wronged voice that concern in a respectful and constructive manner. We will never be able to please everyone with the sheer amount of changes, but at least we can make the best out of the situation.

What we cannot do, is be afraid of making new changes, purely on the chance that someone might be worse off somewhere. If we walked on broken glass like that all the time, nothing would ever get done. We had players who loved old Omega-48 and did not want the 47 and 49 split happen. I understand them and I wish there was a way where they wouldn't have felt wronged. Yet we, collectively had multiple discussions and decided that, despite the minority loving Omega-48, more people would enjoy the 47 and 49 split, as well as fixing a giant lore hole of the initial merge in the process. Should we not have done the split just because someone was going to be worse off from the O48 split? You be the judge.

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SNAC Montage Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5 | Thruster SNAC

[vladimir26]

All fine and dandy, but what would be cool is to make a change that impacts people with having an actual reason, not just an hypothetical one, and maybe provide an alternative before or at the same time with the change, a better one than a 2 systems difference isn't as big as a 2x, 3x, this being an example.

---

[Wesker]

A couple of things to address regarding the Barrier Pass shortcut:

1. When connections/bases/systems change, economy gets re-calculated automatically. With the way the economy formula for HRCs works, it favors longer distances (the sweet spot is about 20-25 minutes of travel time). This means that in general when travel time increases, profits go up. For this specific example of Copper to Gallia, or any other location that would have used the Barrier Pass last month, profit of hauling went up, not down. Worst case, if the haul is too long, you can log off half way through, continue next time, and still have more CSU overall.

2. Outcasts hauling Cardamine from Malta to Manhattan via the Barrier Pass: The Barrier Pass was not a vanilla connection, as neither Baffin nor Coronado are vanilla systems.

3. Outcasts do not haul Cardamine via the Barrier Pass in canon lore. The main path is via Bretonia to Trafalgar, Mactan, then Liberty.

4. Barrier Pass was not the fastest route to get from Malta to Manhattan in 5.2. That was Bretonia via Leeds -> Magellan. Then Kusari via Kyushu. And only in 3rd place, Barrier Pass.

5. Outcast players did not majorly use the Barrier Pass when smuggling cardamine. Some people did, but as is the case with most routes, the most amount of players opted for the option that nets the highest profit for the shortest amount of time, which is the Bretonian route.

---

Why was the Coronado connection changed? Primarily to reduce travel time across the Taus for combat ships and increase player interaction via faster response times. Not to give activity to the Houses. Bretonia does not get a major spike in activity because a smuggler passes through the northern part of Leeds. A Bretonian player would have to be already in Leeds waiting before they had a chance to catch a smuggler. Conversely, smugglers are not forced to spend a big portion of their route travelling through Bretonia and tremble at the sight of lawfuls patrolling the area to catch them. They have to travel half a system before they are out. People who are worse off from this change compared to before are the ones relying on Copper as the POB resource. And I understand you, this is a negative change for a player only caring about the POB side of Copper with bases in specific spots such as Gallia, while not caring about combat ship traversal through the Taus or Copper as an HRC.

If the connection remained stable, it would kill off any potential of Copper as an HRC into Gallia, and instead of POB owners complaining we'd get regular traders complaining that the profits got cut. If we left it as it was in 5.2, people would complain that reaching Coronado from ex. Tau-23 takes too long to respond to or start player interaction. Whichever way you choose, someone will complain and someone will be better off. In this specific example, how much worse is a player who owns a POB in Champagne? In 5.2 the route would have been Coronado -> Baffin -> Tau-29 -> Tau-23 -> Languedoc -> Ile-de-France -> Champagne. Now, the route is Coronado -> Cortez -> Manchester -> Newcastle -> Tau-31 -> Tau-23 -> Languedoc -> Ile-de-France -> Champagne. 6 systems versus 8. Is it longer travel time? Absolutely. Is it that much worse, that the travel time increased 2x, 3x, or more? No. It is a 2 system difference, with a higher % of the route being trade lanes due to the Bretonian path.

---

This change only revealed the actual issue, an underlaying one with economy: balancing POB recipes. Some location are superior to others when it comes to overall POB potential and versatility to make equipment. The best examples of this are systems like Omega-3, or Rheinland having an advantage in 5.2 due to the Ablatives being so prevalent in so many recipes. The actual solution to getting the POBs in Gallia be more competitive with the rest is to do a rebalance of POB equipment recipes, something the economy team is already planning to do. They haven't managed to finish it in time for 5.3, but hopefully it will come in the near future.

And as a last note - keep up the feedback, everyone. This has been one of the largest updates in terms of workload in the history of the mod, with thousands of changes. It is only natural that in so many changes, there will be certain changes that certain players dislike. I would be shocked if it wasn't so. I can only hope that players who do feel wronged voice that concern in a respectful and constructive manner. We will never be able to please everyone with the sheer amount of changes, but at least we can make the best out of the situation.

What we cannot do, is be afraid of making new changes, purely on the chance that someone might be worse off somewhere. If we walked on broken glass like that all the time, nothing would ever get done. We had players who loved old Omega-48 and did not want the 47 and 49 split happen. I understand them and I wish there was a way where they wouldn't have felt wronged. Yet we, collectively had multiple discussions and decided that, despite the minority loving Omega-48, more people would enjoy the 47 and 49 split, as well as fixing a giant lore hole of the initial merge in the process. Should we not have done the split just because someone was going to be worse off from the O48 split? You be the judge.

Antonio you are old news step aside.

I datamined the patch within 2 seconds p decent tbh.

---

[rwx]

- Changed: Rep buy requirements for commodities removed.

Hopefully it'll perform better when fixed. Cool concept otherwise. I'm guessing Smugglers could get an exempt from this mechanic, though? Or maybe give them a command of sorts to align their reputation with the faction they want to smuggle for.

I absolutely love the idea of the cargo being restricted by the ID you carry.

For example, how much easier would it have been when we all first started if when on a lawful ID and trying to buy something which was RP Contraband for that ID if a console message came up saying something like "Sorry, you can't purchase "X Commodity" because "Faction ID" wouldn't ever touch "X Commodity" - To haul "X Commodity" Please use another character from "X Faction"

Adjust npc prices depending on your repsheet with that faction.
You're unfriendly: You have to pay more
You're neutral: Normal price
You're friendly: You pay less
You're affiliated: You basically get it for free

The opposite could be applied for the selling-to-station prices.

[Chenzo-]

A couple of things to address regarding the Barrier Pass shortcut:

1. When connections/bases/systems change, economy gets re-calculated automatically. With the way the economy formula for HRCs works, it favors longer distances (the sweet spot is about 20-25 minutes of travel time). This means that in general when travel time increases, profits go up. For this specific example of Copper to Gallia, or any other location that would have used the Barrier Pass last month, profit of hauling went up, not down. Worst case, if the haul is too long, you can log off half way through, continue next time, and still have more CSU overall.

2. Outcasts hauling Cardamine from Malta to Manhattan via the Barrier Pass: The Barrier Pass was not a vanilla connection, as neither Baffin nor Coronado are vanilla systems.

3. Outcasts do not haul Cardamine via the Barrier Pass in canon lore. The main path is via Bretonia to Trafalgar, Mactan, then Liberty.

4. Barrier Pass was not the fastest route to get from Malta to Manhattan in 5.2. That was Bretonia via Leeds -> Magellan. Then Kusari via Kyushu. And only in 3rd place, Barrier Pass.

5. Outcast players did not majorly use the Barrier Pass when smuggling cardamine. Some people did, but as is the case with most routes, the most amount of players opted for the option that nets the highest profit for the shortest amount of time, which is the Bretonian route.

---

Why was the Coronado connection changed? Primarily to reduce travel time across the Taus for combat ships and increase player interaction via faster response times. Not to give activity to the Houses. Bretonia does not get a major spike in activity because a smuggler passes through the northern part of Leeds. A Bretonian player would have to be already in Leeds waiting before they had a chance to catch a smuggler. Conversely, smugglers are not forced to spend a big portion of their route travelling through Bretonia and tremble at the sight of lawfuls patrolling the area to catch them. They have to travel half a system before they are out. People who are worse off from this change compared to before are the ones relying on Copper as the POB resource. And I understand you, this is a negative change for a player only caring about the POB side of Copper with bases in specific spots such as Gallia, while not caring about combat ship traversal through the Taus or Copper as an HRC.

If the connection remained stable, it would kill off any potential of Copper as an HRC into Gallia, and instead of POB owners complaining we'd get regular traders complaining that the profits got cut. If we left it as it was in 5.2, people would complain that reaching Coronado from ex. Tau-23 takes too long to respond to or start player interaction. Whichever way you choose, someone will complain and someone will be better off. In this specific example, how much worse is a player who owns a POB in Champagne? In 5.2 the route would have been Coronado -> Baffin -> Tau-29 -> Tau-23 -> Languedoc -> Ile-de-France -> Champagne. Now, the route is Coronado -> Cortez -> Manchester -> Newcastle -> Tau-31 -> Tau-23 -> Languedoc -> Ile-de-France -> Champagne. 6 systems versus 8. Is it longer travel time? Absolutely. Is it that much worse, that the travel time increased 2x, 3x, or more? No. It is a 2 system difference, with a higher % of the route being trade lanes due to the Bretonian path.

---

This change only revealed the actual issue, an underlaying one with economy: balancing POB recipes. Some location are superior to others when it comes to overall POB potential and versatility to make equipment. The best examples of this are systems like Omega-3, or Rheinland having an advantage in 5.2 due to the Ablatives being so prevalent in so many recipes. The actual solution to getting the POBs in Gallia be more competitive with the rest is to do a rebalance of POB equipment recipes, something the economy team is already planning to do. They haven't managed to finish it in time for 5.3, but hopefully it will come in the near future.

And as a last note - keep up the feedback, everyone. This has been one of the largest updates in terms of workload in the history of the mod, with thousands of changes. It is only natural that in so many changes, there will be certain changes that certain players dislike. I would be shocked if it wasn't so. I can only hope that players who do feel wronged voice that concern in a respectful and constructive manner. We will never be able to please everyone with the sheer amount of changes, but at least we can make the best out of the situation.

What we cannot do, is be afraid of making new changes, purely on the chance that someone might be worse off somewhere. If we walked on broken glass like that all the time, nothing would ever get done. We had players who loved old Omega-48 and did not want the 47 and 49 split happen. I understand them and I wish there was a way where they wouldn't have felt wronged. Yet we, collectively had multiple discussions and decided that, despite the minority loving Omega-48, more people would enjoy the 47 and 49 split, as well as fixing a giant lore hole of the initial merge in the process. Should we not have done the split just because someone was going to be worse off from the O48 split? You be the judge.

[quote="Chenzo-" pid='2375096' dateline='1756125288']

Here is a solution: Put the JH's that far apart in the baffin/coronado systems that it means the link doesn't have the same eco issue, whilst also not upsetting any players too much.

"powertraders" - Econ travel time/length calculating route for the game?

A 5k ship travels at 350m/s if you're lucky due to the asteroids.

Given how pretty much anything else is "faster" - These being NonTL systems and the jump holes get placed far enough apart- Happy win for everyone, right?

Econ and player happy meet in the middle solving all given problems? Please place the Jump Holes far away enough from one another to not impact the Econ due to the lengthened travel time.

- My apologies for being wrong on the systems not being vanilla;
Explanation:
Must have been a very early disco mod as I only ever remember using this route with countless other players since I started playing- there's lots of TAZ history which ironically to date even within the writeup for the HS> official faction, baring a few key bits of the Disco/Player lore made/shaped and adopted for the outlook of the OC faction years before they existed. - The point is there's good community history. The INRP route to follow with a few factions who wont just kill you because you exist.

---

[Chenzo-]

- Changed: Rep buy requirements for commodities removed.

Hopefully it'll perform better when fixed. Cool concept otherwise. I'm guessing Smugglers could get an exempt from this mechanic, though? Or maybe give them a command of sorts to align their reputation with the faction they want to smuggle for.

I absolutely love the idea of the cargo being restricted by the ID you carry.

For example, how much easier would it have been when we all first started if when on a lawful ID and trying to buy something which was RP Contraband for that ID if a console message came up saying something like "Sorry, you can't purchase "X Commodity" because "Faction ID" wouldn't ever touch "X Commodity" - To haul "X Commodity" Please use another character from "X Faction"

Adjust npc prices depending on your repsheet with that faction.
You're unfriendly: You have to pay more
You're neutral: Normal price
You're friendly: You pay less
You're affiliated: You basically get it for free

The opposite could be applied for the selling-to-station prices.

I also like this a lot. Freelancers not getting the tesco clubcard deal but the flat rate of everywhere which may be higher or lower than anywhere else.

---

[IahimD]

A couple of things to address regarding the Barrier Pass shortcut:

1. When connections/bases/systems change, economy gets re-calculated automatically. With the way the economy formula for HRCs works, it favors longer distances (the sweet spot is about 20-25 minutes of travel time). This means that in general when travel time increases, profits go up. For this specific example of Copper to Gallia, or any other location that would have used the Barrier Pass last month, profit of hauling went up, not down. Worst case, if the haul is too long, you can log off half way through, continue next time, and still have more CSU overall.

I'm genuinely curious: how many people trade Copper in Gallia for CSU (as opposed to: for Pob recipes)? I'm willing to bet that if you make the Coronado - Tau 31 JH stable, less people will complain about this specific change. Over the recent 2 (maybe even 3?) updates, Coronado has been getting the shorter stick: losing the connection to Newcastle, now the trade connection to Taus; getting larger... now the potential trade lanes also got the boot. As someone flying 5kers there... it's less and less enjoyable

[Nodoka Hanamura]

- Changed: Rep buy requirements for commodities removed.

Hopefully it'll perform better when fixed. Cool concept otherwise. I'm guessing Smugglers could get an exempt from this mechanic, though? Or maybe give them a command of sorts to align their reputation with the faction they want to smuggle for.

I absolutely love the idea of the cargo being restricted by the ID you carry.

For example, how much easier would it have been when we all first started if when on a lawful ID and trying to buy something which was RP Contraband for that ID if a console message came up saying something like "Sorry, you can't purchase "X Commodity" because "Faction ID" wouldn't ever touch "X Commodity" - To haul "X Commodity" Please use another character from "X Faction"

Adjust npc prices depending on your repsheet with that faction.
You're unfriendly: You have to pay more
You're neutral: Normal price
You're friendly: You pay less
You're affiliated: You basically get it for free

The opposite could be applied for the selling-to-station prices.

I also like this a lot. Freelancers not getting the tesco clubcard deal but the flat rate of everywhere which may be higher or lower than anywhere else.

This would be a much, much better implementation of this idea, and I'd be onboard with it.

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